Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the interior design business. My name is Geoff Hayward and I'm joined by my co host, Susie Rumbold, past president of the British Institute of Interior Design and a creative director at Tasuto Interiors, in front of a live audience of designers here at the fabulous Arte showroom in the Design Centre Chelsea Harbour in London.
What an amazing audience. You are right. Today we will be discussing the important things that they don't teach you at design school.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: As interior design gains ground as a serious career and profession, more and more academic institutions are offering degree and master's level interior design courses to teach students the rudiments of this highly technical subject.
Students master complex CAD packages. They learn about building construction and the history of styles. And they produce sophisticated design concepts and practical space plans as part of their assignments.
But is this enough? Do design schools adequately equip budding designers with the skills they need to take their places in our industry? What don't they teach at design school? And what should students and employers do to identify and plug those gaps? Welcome to the interior design business.
[00:01:23] Speaker A: Okay. And for this discussion, we are joined by three renowned, internationally acclaimed designers. We have Frankie Roussel from Jolie Studio.
We have Sharu Gandhi from Elysian.
And we have Laura Hammett from Laura.
[00:01:39] Speaker C: Hammett, welcome all to the show.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: Laura, let me start with you. What are the qualities that you look for most when you're interviewing designers for a new hire, and are you finding those qualities?
[00:01:54] Speaker D: Well, I actually had a nice chat earlier with somebody who's in the audience and about that exact thing because I am always looking for a person rather than a portfolio or an education.
So that may be controversial to say on this kind of topic where we're talking about the importance of education. But for me, there are qualities that you cannot teach in an individual. And I'm looking for a certain level of kind of assertiveness.
So I really appreciate it when someone comes up to me like they have this evening just to say hi and to talk about a potential kind of internship. But also it's so much about just a kind of hunger for the industry. And I think you cannot teach that. There's skills you can learn. But I think if you've got to have that passion and that's got to be innate. So I'm always looking for that someone who's going to just do the work and not just kind of come in thinking this is a kind of nice, glamorous, fun industry to be in, because it's pretty hard, as we all know.
[00:02:55] Speaker A: Indeed. And Sheryl, I can see you nodding along with that. Does that sound familiar?
[00:02:59] Speaker E: Yeah, very similar.
If we have to choose between skill and fit, we choose fit.
And when I'm interviewing, I guess I'm always looking for this sort of innate curiosity drive, because I think you can skill someone up. And, you know, at Elise in particular, we put in quite a lot of effort in skilling people up.
But, yeah, that hunger, that drive, a strong communicator, someone who can collaborate well, those skills sort of matter. I think those are harder to teach and adapt to.
I reflected on this a bit. In preparing for the podcast, we increasingly are more interested in someone who has a desire to lean into working with technical skills, working with software. So the sort of tech side is definitely something we do look for. Not necessarily the person having the skills on the day they walk through the door, but that ability and desire to learn. I think that's become quite fundamental to our industry, or at least certainly how we practice.
[00:04:05] Speaker A: I'd imagine that's getting more important as well. What about you, Frankie?
[00:04:09] Speaker F: Yeah, I think curiosity is a really great word. One of our values at Sholey is that we're culturally curious and I think just simple things, like meeting somebody who obviously is obsessed with the world of interiors, but also, you know, loves to go out and party or like experiencing different environments or even kind of, you know, is curious about travel or seeing the world differently. And I think it's always really nice, especially during the interview process, where we can dig not just into the interiors and the technical side, but we can also talk about where they love to travel, the types of places that they love to eat and drink, the things that they love to do outside side of work. And that, for me is really important to kind of get a full holistic view on somebody as a person. And I think that really plays into the fit side. Something else that I think is really kind of maybe undervalued, but I value it massively, is seeing jobs on people's CVs that are things like retail or bar work, like that shows me that somebody's been through some really hardcore job roles. And I remember once speaking to Nick Jones at Soho House Group and him telling me that everyone that works there, whether they're a designer or whether they're brand new front of house, they have to do a shift behind the bar to really understand how that business truly works, that kind of front facing customer service. So I think I take a kind of subconscious, similar stance on it, where I see that on someone's CV and I'm like, you know how to do customer service and interior design isn't just design, it is customer service as well.
[00:05:36] Speaker D: But I think yeah, any, any experience in hospitality industry teaches you a lot, a lot about kind of hard graft but also working with people because so much of it of this business is that and just to sort of jump in.
[00:05:48] Speaker F: Is it possible to test for all.
[00:05:50] Speaker B: Those qualities in an interview situation?
[00:05:52] Speaker E: No.
[00:05:55] Speaker D: No. I mean I find the hiring side one of the hardest parts of running a business because you know, lots of people present a certain way and that might be a different reality. So there is only so much you can gauge from, from an interview. It is hard.
[00:06:11] Speaker F: You get.
[00:06:12] Speaker D: No, you get a good, you get a vibe about someone's, someone's character. But I think their, their work is the harder thing to gauge. It has to be.
[00:06:20] Speaker E: Yes, fit less so actually if you. Yeah, that's why fit to me. So you know, if you just depends how they conduct themselves at the interview, how they answer questions, how they follow up, you know, will they make the effort to come for the follow up interview. That's why the Fitbit was walk. I mean I've, I've been in interviews where our creative director has recognized the portfolio as hers.
[00:06:41] Speaker A: Wow, you're kidding me.
[00:06:43] Speaker E: The information is out.
So I think, and that's an unusual, you know, not the best example but I think that's why gauging fit and attitude and how they'll slot into your team is so fundamental and you won't always get it right but you know, you just soldier on.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: So following on from that then how do you test out someone's portfolio in an interview situation?
[00:07:10] Speaker D: I mean we do a task project. Yeah. I think we've learned over the years that that's quite important to do.
You know, a lot of the time you get, you get a fairly good sense of someone's kind of sense of style and their presentation skills, some of their technical skills will give them, you know, depending on the role.
Usually just a room to design or a brief. If it's technical, interior architectural role, it'll be like a. His joinery or something. You can gauge quite a bit from that.
[00:07:40] Speaker F: Yeah, same for us. We have a task and because we have a range of different disciplines in house, we have CGI artists through to architectural technicians and interior designers. We have slightly different tasks for all of those. And we always say, you know, you put in what you want to this. We're not going to dictate kind of how much time you spend on this.
[00:07:57] Speaker D: But that's revealing in itself.
[00:07:59] Speaker F: That is very revealing. And I think also the quickness of turnaround, the just ambition there, you can really sense a lot through that. So. So we actually didn't do that initially because when we were sort of naive and a bit young in the industry, we thought, oh, that just feels a bit too much to ask of someone. But actually, as the business has grown up a bit and we've grown up with it, we've realized that that's really fundamental. And actually, because we've learned through our own mistakes of letting people in, essentially, and then finding out that the whole portfolio just isn't their work.
[00:08:28] Speaker B: So is their portfolio. There's still the gateway before we, you know, tell the entire world that actually portfolios are meaningless these days.
[00:08:35] Speaker D: Yeah, it's meaningless. I think. I think where it doesn't have as much weight for me is when someone's worked at a big studio and it's difficult to know how much. How involved they've been on these projects because it's very possible for someone to worked in part on it and then claimed it. So, you know, it's also how you.
[00:08:56] Speaker E: Put the portfolio together. Like, sometimes you get a portfolio that's.
The design in itself is nice.
[00:09:02] Speaker F: Yeah.
[00:09:02] Speaker D: The graphics, the way it's been put.
[00:09:04] Speaker E: Together, it's not adhesive, it's not, I don't know, aligned. You know, words are. But, you know, the task thing, actually, it's a relatively blunt instrument because we do tasks too, but they're done off site and, you know, you're not sitting with the person. You don't. We've also had people do tasks and then actually when they join us, they haven't lived up to the standard of the task. So there's just inherent risk built into human beings. You know, when you're bringing people into your workplace, but you also have lots of delightful outcomes. And so you just close your eyes here.
[00:09:44] Speaker A: And interior design is very complex. So, Shari, are you looking at communication skills as well as, for example, how presented. How well presented they are as well?
[00:09:55] Speaker F: Yeah, I mean, we are a very.
[00:09:58] Speaker E: Diverse team, so we have lots of people for whom English isn't their first language. That's not a deterrent.
Again, it's about their determination and their effort to communicate. You know, you can communicate in different ways.
Yeah, I would say I'm definitely quite into a sort of diligence.
So for me, someone who presents with a thoroughness and a diligence because.
[00:10:22] Speaker D: Doing.
[00:10:22] Speaker E: An interior design or a design role, because we're multidisciplinary There is a level of diligence needed. So I. I'm always quite into that when, you know, asking revealing questions, like, you know, give us an example of the last time you failed at something and how did you acknowledge that failure and what did that mean for the next project you did? So we have quite a sort of extensive list of questions that are meant to be quite probing, and they're asked in the moment, and you learn a lot from those.
[00:10:53] Speaker B: I think I heard something interesting recently where they were talking about star questions, which is, I've got to get this right. Star is situation, task, action, and result.
[00:11:03] Speaker E: Okay.
[00:11:03] Speaker B: So you frame the questions in such a way that actually they have to describe a situation, and then what was the task that resulted from that? What was their action? How did it come out?
[00:11:13] Speaker D: Yeah, because I know that they really were. They really were involved.
Yes.
[00:11:20] Speaker E: So I'd say the portfolio is that first gateway to the meeting, but then it's about how the meeting pans out and there's the task. So you're sort of trying different angles, too. And actually, just as importantly for the candidate, that process is also revealing for them because they'll often have other opportunities.
[00:11:40] Speaker D: So they've got to gauge you.
One of my sense checks, which may feel unkind. I hope it doesn't. And if I feel a bit bored, I tend to know that that's not the right fit as well. Because if someone is describing their own portfolio to you and you're not, and you're not inspired, that's not going to work for our clients either. So if I find my. I can often have great interviews that just go on and on, and I realize that loads of times pass it and it's just been an enjoyable conversation. Other times it feels a little strained and that. That's not a good science.
[00:12:13] Speaker A: Interesting. And, Frankie, are you distracted or impressed by flamboyantly dressed designers? You can't.
[00:12:19] Speaker F: Oh, impressed.
No, I'm all about. I know I sort of touched on it before, but also looking around. So there's the portfolio, but looking around that for cues and clues as to who somebody actually is. And extracurricular in my world has always been a strength. So whether that's the way somebody comes in and dresses and showcases their creativity that way, or whether it's through a really clever mention in their portfolio or CV that they also do a bit of social media on the side, or, like, think about the fact that the person that's reading this is a business owner at the end of the day. And so the more strings to your bow that you can offer, the more likely, as well as the core role and the. And the actual designer themselves, there's more likely to be a peak of interest or a bit of appetite. So I've had people apply for interior design roles, but they also do a bit of photography on the side or they also run their own social media accounts. And I'm like, that's amazing for me, because on a particularly quiet day, there's plenty other things they can be getting on with across the business.
[00:13:15] Speaker E: Absolutely.
[00:13:16] Speaker B: So do you think graduating. Graduating designers now, and maybe not second jobbers, but the one the kids that are coming straight out of uni, do graduating designers have the skills that they need to survive life in an office and, dare I say it, on a building site? Frankie, do you want to take that one?
[00:13:31] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:13:32] Speaker F: I mean, I think placements or just general kind of exposure to the industry is really key to understanding how to navigate a building site type situation. And I can really speak to that in the sense that I remember I actually also studied as an architect, and I was also the only one who'd never been on a building site when I went to university, which I found really daunting. And I knew instantly that because of that, I'd need to get a placement during my course studies because I wanted to be able to be taken onto a building site and know what that experience was like and not feel like I kind of went into it completely blind. And it is an experience, let me tell you. And back then, which was only 10 years ago, you know, it was cat calls, it was wolf whistles, it was the four works. And, you know, even just knowing how to kind of kit yourself up and know the kind of etiquette of everything is really important. But they definitely did not teach me that at school or during my university program. So that very much came from this amazing guy who kind of took me under his wing at my architecture practice that I did my placement at and just showed me the ropes and said, right, get your hard hat on. Hi, Viz. And did the whole process with me. So I think there's a lot to be said for being in the industry to actually experience those things.
So, yeah, I think in terms of equipping people for the real world, I always know when we bring in somebody more at a junior level, that there's going to need to be quite a lot of input from us on that side and just giving them that exposure, because I do appreciate that maybe the design schools do need to do more and they do need to do more site visits and things like that and that would be amazing. We didn't get that. But, you know, things may have changed now.
[00:15:06] Speaker E: I don't think they have.
[00:15:07] Speaker F: No, I don't think they're in the office then just. Do you.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: They have any sort of. Can they answer the phone and do they understand if they have to tidy up after themselves and all that?
[00:15:17] Speaker F: Yeah, again, I just think that comes down to kind of being a well rounded person and it's not even just needing to know how an office particularly works, but just, you know, I find that if you have those other skills on their cv, you kind of know, even if it's just bartending, you know that they're going to be a bit more conscientious about tidying up because it makes for a better work environment. I think honestly those, those little jobs that you can get along the way. I mean when I was at university I had three other jobs along the side. I was working in a bar, I was working on a shop front and I was also working in like promotions. So I was doing like after hours flyering outside a nightclub. Like those were all things that I did alongside my degree studying. And I think by the time I got into the office this, you know, of course it was daunting but I certainly knew how to answer a phone or speak to someone or make sure that my area was clean and tidy. But you do notice when people maybe don't feel that that's necessary and so they just head down, which is amazing, into the studies but they don't see the softer skill requirements and maybe don't go and reach out for that experience elsewhere.
[00:16:24] Speaker D: Yeah, definitely. And actually, I mean we find some of our best candidates we come across are people who've had previous careers and that's quite. Yeah, I'd say that's more common probably in our industry than the many.
It's a very female led industry. A lot of people kind of change careers after having children, for example. So someone who's come to us very green in the sense of, of the industry, but with a wealth of experience in another sector. Yeah. And in life and, and they can just absolutely hit the ground running on day one, pick up the phone, no problem.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: I mean, presumably it's empathy. They can, they can do that more naturally when they're a bit conflict.
[00:17:00] Speaker D: I think it's confidence. I think a lot of it, you just have to, you know, it can be daunting. I mean my first job was for a very, very small company. It was A startup. So my first, the only two companies I worked for before I launched my own were small companies. So I, you know, don't know that feeling of going into an office as a complete new person, particularly a young person with 30 people and having to answer the phone, it's very daunting.
So I think, you know, confidence, you just almost just have to throw yourself in. Some people are able to do it quicker than others.
[00:17:30] Speaker F: Yeah.
[00:17:30] Speaker E: And actually, you know, the graduates we hire, I do think this generation is maybe overtly vilified. I mean, they're incredibly bright, empathetic, they know a lot about the world because they've grown up in a world with news channels and social media. They have really strong moral compass, really strong ideas about right and wrong.
They hit the ground running within the framework of being a recent graduate. They're no less or more resilient than I was. I mean, the contract on my first building site said he was going to get me a T shirt that said, I'll get back to you every, every question he asked me.
[00:18:07] Speaker D: Okay.
[00:18:09] Speaker E: And I've studied seven years of architecture and didn't know an answer to a single question.
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[00:19:30] Speaker B: Interior design is all about successfully managing many different types of relationships through sometimes exceptionally challenging circumstances.
[00:19:38] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:19:39] Speaker B: Is that something that you think can be taught and do career changes? We've kind of answered it already though. The career changes bring it with them. But do you think that the management of relationships is something that can be taught or is it something that you.
[00:19:52] Speaker F: Just have to have.
[00:19:54] Speaker E: I think it's a combination, you know, the cranky.
[00:19:58] Speaker F: I honestly think you've either got it or you haven't.
I really do. I think, you know, even in the most senior roles, I see people coming through the ranks and they have to then start becoming more exposed and more vulnerable to client interaction. It's basically account management, management dealing with people's emotions on a client level. And I think you can, everyone can do it on paper, I think everyone can do and perform that role. But whether you've got the spark or not is something different. And I think that's where it comes down to stepping out or side stepping outside of design mentality and into sales mentality.
Knowing how to like smooth over a potentially tumultuous relationship is the whole skill in itself. And not, not get too passionate about protecting your design and understanding that there's a bigger commercial play here and there's a business that you're working for. I think that being able to do that effectively, I see some people that are just natural at it and they can nip things in the bud and others who can still get to the end result, but it might just take a little longer and a few people might get hurt along the way. So I think, I mean, for me.
[00:21:01] Speaker D: With customer service of any sort, there's a lot of psychology involved in it and you're really having to, you know, there's no one size fits all. You have to work with that person. And when you're working with a client, they are often at their most vulnerable, most emotional, most stressed, particularly when it comes to money.
[00:21:19] Speaker A: Indeed.
[00:21:20] Speaker D: And, and I think, I mean, I feel like we've quite successfully taught quite a lot of our seniors some really good skills when it comes to.
For me, it's putting yourself in your client's shoes. And I think it can be very easy to just be, you know, it's a stressful job for a designer as well. You're coming to the end of a.
Things maybe haven't gone ideally in certain areas and you're panicking and you're thinking about you don't want to kind of let the company down and don't let the client down, but you'll focus so much in your job and getting your job done. And actually it's really, really important to step out and think, okay, you've got to think, this is an enormous amount of money. For any client, no matter how wealthy they are, it's still an enormous amount of money. It's their home, it's all These different aspects. So when you are sending that email, which is delivering bad news, or it's telling them about some kind of delay or what it is, you know, you've got to deliver it, or if you're on the phone with them in a way that they're human beings, you know, and put yourself in those shoes, how does that feel?
And I think you can. It's just constantly reminding people to just, you know, just. It's not about you. It's not about it.
[00:22:27] Speaker E: You know, I think very few people have that very, very natural ability and they. They start their own businesses.
[00:22:34] Speaker F: Yes.
[00:22:36] Speaker E: Even having said that, you know, the amount I've learned In the last 20 years, I actually find exciting that a lot of it can be taught if there's a willingness to. Your point?
[00:22:45] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:22:46] Speaker E: That extra spark of naturally being able to navigate, but the human ability to learn and develop and you cannot be what you cannot see. I mean, you have more senior people around you that you can watch and emulate and who will mentor you. It's absolutely wonderful how people can grow and step into roles. You can just practice. You can practice how to negotiate, you can practice how to deal with difficult situations. And we've had amazing success stories with members of our team.
[00:23:16] Speaker D: And I think the challenge is giving younger designers the opportunity. Yeah, I think that's really important. And we take on. Intentionally take on a few smaller projects a year so that we have something that we can start to kind of get people.
And they will do a lot of plant basing on those. And it's not that they're less important projects. That would be. That's unfair on the project, but it's.
[00:23:40] Speaker E: They're just different.
[00:23:41] Speaker D: They're just more manageable. And there would always be a senior kind of with them, mentoring them, but I think that exposure and, you know, that's where you get the real growth and that's experience. And again, coming back to the subject of the conversation, you can't learn that.
You have to be on the job.
[00:23:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:58] Speaker E: I don't know what. I mean, could universities teach some sort of personality analysis, negotiation? I mean, it would be quite handy.
[00:24:06] Speaker D: I think that's because it's such an enormous skill subject.
[00:24:08] Speaker B: They will know they can't jam anything else into the curriculum, is what I'm starting to. It's a real problem. And I. Anyway, that's the story.
[00:24:16] Speaker A: I mean, that's an interesting point. I mean, there are now over 70 UK universities that teach interior design degrees, compared to fewer than 10 at the start of the century. So one of the questions that I wanted to ask, prompted by Susie, was where do these lecturers come from and do they know what they're talking about?
[00:24:35] Speaker B: And is it a case of the. The blind leading the, you know, the inexperienced?
[00:24:40] Speaker E: Yeah, I have no idea.
[00:24:41] Speaker F: I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that I don't. Well, I don't think enough design schools invite real practicing interior designers in to do guest lectures.
So I don't know enough about people's CVs that are going in and doing teaching the curriculum. But I think there's a missed opportunity for reaching out. I mean, I've done a couple of talks at different universities and it's been a literal drop in, do an hour talk and drop out. But that opportunity to actually sit down and help somebody with their portfolio would be really valuable and I'm sure there's plenty of interior design business owners that would be open to that. Yeah, but, yeah, I don't know if you've either been approached in that way.
[00:25:20] Speaker D: I've never been approached and I would really like to do it. Yeah. So that's something I think we could do.
[00:25:25] Speaker E: I mean, when we can. We have the Royal College of Art visiting us in a few weeks.
We get approached occasionally. Yeah, we do, but not to the quantum.
That would align with the number of courses. Yeah, we do get approached occasionally and they're great. They're also great opportunities for us for recruitment. So we've hired out of, you know, those kind of sessions at universities or people coming in. It's a really nice opportunity to meet a new cohort of graduates.
[00:25:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And you want a close relationship with those institutions.
[00:25:56] Speaker F: Yes.
[00:25:57] Speaker E: I mean, that's your future team.
[00:26:01] Speaker B: So a few years back, I'm not naming names here, one very well known London design school placed ads on the side of London red buses claiming that they could teach anyone, anyone to be an interior designer. Is that true, Nora?
[00:26:17] Speaker D: No, definitely not. I mean, there's so many aspects. I think there's just this taste. I mean, not everyone has taste. I know taste is subjective to a point and I think you can learn it to an extent, but I think you, you either have, you know, a sense of design or you don't, you have the people skills or you don't, you know.
[00:26:37] Speaker F: Yeah.
[00:26:38] Speaker D: If I say absolutely no. No way.
[00:26:40] Speaker E: Thank you.
[00:26:40] Speaker F: Yeah, well, I think there's some equal measure talent as desire. Right. And if somebody doesn't carry the desire to do the role in the same passionate way as the next person, then they'll fall behind. I think you can open a textbook on anything. But I would never personally want to be a lawyer because I'm sure I could learn a few key words, but I certainly wouldn't get out of bed in the morning to want to do it.
And that's really what kind of feeds the appetite to keep getting better and better and better at it.
But I just had this immediate visual of some people in my life that I'm like, no, you would never be an interior. Like, there's just immediates that I'm like, absolutely not. No, no, no, no.
So I don't agree with that statement, but I think maybe, yeah, I think the university might have been up to a slightly different objective there in recruitment process.
[00:27:31] Speaker A: Okay.
Shari, I know that interior design is very complex and a lot of the problems that designers are solving are really complex on site. And they're about balancing client needs against budgets and on site constraints. Can that type of thinking and problem solving be taught?
[00:27:46] Speaker E: Absolutely. Yeah. I think if you can.
To me, even the question about, can anyone become an interior designer, a lot of these questions come back to willingness and determination.
And so if someone wants to learn it and crack it, then I believe that almost everything can be broken down into a step by step process.
It doesn't automate a project, but you can give someone a very well considered framework and you can, you know, problem solve and talk through situations and then be available to them to, you know, answer. Okay, I've hit this roadblock. Okay. There's a decision tree ahead of you. Here are four avenues.
You know, you can see through a classic lens of quality time, money. Which one would compromise, which one?
I think you can teach those things. Yeah, I'm real optimistic. I really, I really, I think if the team member and the employer both have willingness and see something in each other and have the fit, then I think you can teach each other a lot. But if the willingness and the fit's missing, then you're not going to move forward.
[00:28:58] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:28:59] Speaker B: How important is it for interior designers to be team players? And is that something that you can teach?
[00:29:04] Speaker D: I'd say you can't teach that. I mean, we have a no ego policy in understanding no ego, no ego. It's really, it's really important to us. Aaron and I don't have egos when it comes to. We just want to do a great job. And that applies when we're working with, you know, wider teams, with architects, construction engineers, and we, we need to make sure that everyone in the team is the same way. So I think that's critical, and I think people are who they are.
[00:29:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:35] Speaker F: Yeah. I always liken this to my younger years where I was into my sports a lot more, and I used to do. I used to play football in a team, and I also used to be a single sprinting athlete. And the two worlds are very different.
[00:29:49] Speaker A: So many strings to your boat.
[00:29:51] Speaker F: I know, I know. Well, we're not there anymore. That time's long gone. But I actually do remember sitting somebody down once and saying, I'm not here to represent you as a single individual athlete. You're part of a team here. Because I think people come into businesses with their own personal agendas, which is completely fair. We're all humans and we're all selfish beings, you know, But I think some people are disillusioned sometimes that they're there for their own agenda and to kind of rise above the rest. And actually, I'm not there to coach one person. I'm there to figure out how a whole team works together.
[00:30:23] Speaker A: Okay. And then following on from that, business skills. So I'm sure you've all learned a lot about business from being in business. What do you think are the really valuable lessons that they can't teach you at design school?
[00:30:37] Speaker F: Any.
[00:30:38] Speaker A: Any thoughts?
[00:30:40] Speaker F: My God, where to begin?
[00:30:42] Speaker D: I mean, there are so many.
[00:30:44] Speaker A: I mean, what do you wish you had to say?
[00:30:46] Speaker E: You started the ability to gauge risk.
[00:30:48] Speaker F: Yeah.
[00:30:48] Speaker E: The ability to see things through a commercial lens.
[00:30:51] Speaker F: Yeah.
[00:30:52] Speaker E: The ability to look ahead and. Yeah.
[00:30:55] Speaker D: You say look ahead? Yeah. It's all those. I mean, I was ne. I mean, you know, I never left schooling thinking I was going to start a business, so I wasn't even questioning those things. But in no world was I taught anything that I use on a daily basis. I do, and that's as a business owner, let alone, you know, coming into the industry. But just things like cash flow projection.
[00:31:17] Speaker F: Yes.
[00:31:17] Speaker D: You know, just knowing how to be ahead, especially in this day and age, it's never been more important to be, you know, have a plan and to have, you know, cash in the bank for a considerable amount of time, because you just never know what's around the corner. So that is absolutely critical. And I don't think any schools teach that kind of go read the business school.
[00:31:38] Speaker E: I found as we've gone, that there's some of the technical stuff you can hire people to support you with.
But what I found I fall back on is an approach to thinking situations through with a balance between a design and a commercial and a human lens.
But you do have to have of basic understanding of business principles. But I think that oftentimes is a very big gulf for a designer to bridge between being an excellent designer and bridging their thinking into.
[00:32:14] Speaker D: That's quite a different skill set.
[00:32:17] Speaker A: Two different parts of the brain entirely.
[00:32:19] Speaker D: Which is why you often get. I feel like I hear about them less so, but very, very creative studio directors who are not great on business side but are very, very creative.
And I interview people where I kind of, you know, can see that in, in the dynamic.
[00:32:36] Speaker F: Yeah.
[00:32:36] Speaker D: And I think sometimes that can be chaotic as a studio, but other times they can kind of bolster that with another service.
[00:32:44] Speaker A: But how do you manage that, Frankie?
[00:32:46] Speaker F: My first hire actually was an operations director and not a design nun, not a kind of side by side designer because I knew that at that point the design output of the business was still very much me and that was my creativity. And actually what I needed support on was right how to draft up a cash flow, you know, spreadsheet and all those things that I still think are really quite boring but very important.
So I think it is two completely different mindsets. What it's about identifying your strengths and weaknesses. But I do think that it would have been nice if at design school they would have, you know, there were so many modules that we did that were all sort of, I guess building up to lots of the same stuff. Yeah. But there was nothing that felt business related or even just commercial like how to make your design even your commercial.
[00:33:36] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:33:37] Speaker F: How to sell it, how to price for it.
[00:33:41] Speaker A: That's a brilliant quality to be taught, isn't it?
[00:33:43] Speaker C: How to sell your design.
[00:33:44] Speaker F: Yes.
[00:33:45] Speaker E: Yeah. I just expected five to seven years. I, I'm very critical of. I didn't study interior design, so architecture is a degree. I just find it crazy to have studied for all those years and not have studied any of the vocational aspects of, you know, architecture or interior is a vocation. You were going to become a practitioner in seven years. Never had a single module on any of that stuff. I mean I built an island in Mumbai and you made, you know, and nothing but, you know. And I'm very critical of that. But actually also on reflecting a lot of those crazy design schemes did teach all of us certain skills about problem solving and bridging sort of aspiration with end result. And then if you complement that by identifying where you don't have a skill and being able to create enough cash flow to hire really skilled people, then actually about 5 years ago I had a moment where I thought actually Instead of dissing my architectural training, it did teach me how to approach things, you see, which as a business owner, you start to realize is actually more important than maybe the technical knowledge.
[00:35:00] Speaker A: It's more intuitive. You're picking it up rather than actually being taught.
[00:35:04] Speaker E: When my professor said to me, you will absorb it osmotically one day.
[00:35:09] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:35:10] Speaker B: Are interior designers born or made?
[00:35:13] Speaker D: I think combination of both.
[00:35:15] Speaker F: Yeah.
[00:35:15] Speaker E: Yeah.
[00:35:17] Speaker F: I was not a born interior designer. I'm outing myself.
I don't think so. Anyway, I've got some amazing people that work for me who are much better at design than I am, and I've done that intentionally, brought them in along the way to kind of just continue to elevate what we offer.
I think you can learn a lot from being surrounded by incredibly talented people.
And I think, again, it comes down to hunger and appetite and desire to absorb.
I'm a classic absorber. Put me in a room with somebody that has this one particular skill for 20 minutes, and I can probably copy and replicate instantly. And so I think that you can learn these things. And I think if you're surrounded by the right people or you put yourself in the right rooms very quickly, you'll start to climb the ranks.
But I do think there is also the counter to that, where you have to have the built into you some baseline level of style and aesthetic and appreciation for the arts and just loving being surrounded by it.
So I think it's a bit of both. But I do truly believe that creativity can also be taught.
[00:36:27] Speaker A: Okay, final question, then. Sherry, I'm going to come to you first with this one.
What is the single most important lesson you've gained from working as an interior designer that you wish you'd known before you started your career in it, that.
[00:36:42] Speaker E: It'S a people business, not a design business, that every thing you want to achieve will fundamentally come down to how you bring people around you, how you inspire them, how you mentor them, the relationships you forge with your clients.
It is astounding how much of a project coming true rests on it being a people business. So I often say to the team, we're not in the design business. We're in the people business.
[00:37:13] Speaker A: Great advice. Great advice like that. Frankie, what would you say?
[00:37:19] Speaker F: Similar vein. I think for me, it's about stepping away from trend. There's so much noise in trend, and especially in this day and age and the new generations coming through are just surrounded by trend influences and actually stripping it right back kind of in a similar way to it being a people business. But really thinking about emotions and experiences and that's very much what makes my business Jolie so different is that we design with the emotion and the experience first, understanding the science behind that rather than just leaning into the latest trend or kind of copying what other people are doing.
[00:37:55] Speaker A: Great advice. Final word.
[00:37:58] Speaker D: I mean, I think they've said it all. I mean, I think so.
[00:38:01] Speaker A: Sorry.
[00:38:02] Speaker D: I think they said it perfectly. Yeah. I just think how much of a well rounded career path it's ended up being something I didn't expect. I think there's an amazing amount of creativity that I feel rewarded by every day, but there's also an incredible amount of kind of hard work and business and all of that stuff. So I think it's.
Seeing the whole picture is probably what I wish I'd known at the beginning.
[00:38:29] Speaker A: Sort of given a lot more varied than you ever thought it was going to be.
[00:38:33] Speaker B: Probably more satisfying.
[00:38:34] Speaker F: Well, I was actually dead going to say how one thing that I'm really determined to do is to bring a lot more awareness to how impactful the interior designer role is because I do think, you know, even I just. As we talked about studies as an architect because that was seen as the prestigious kind of route into any sort of level of creativity and construction.
But actually I very. And this is not to take away from an architecture role because I do think there's so much power there as well. But actually why I fell into interiors because I fell in love with the. The sheer impact on people's emotional kind of responses as they walk through a space and how interiors. It kind of surprised me in a way, I think. I think you come up thinking it's, you know, that awful perception of cushions and curtains and it's just so not.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think that was something I was. As I've gone through my career, I'm realising more and more every day how impactful those design choices can be on society.
[00:39:33] Speaker A: Wonderful.
[00:39:34] Speaker B: That's just been the most fantastic, inspirational hour. Thank you to our fabulous audience and thank you again to Arte in the most amazing showroom and the most amazing team.
[00:39:42] Speaker A: You have been amazing.
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