Why Craft Matters

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the interior design business. My name is Geoff Hayward and today I'm joined by an expert panel in the London studio of renowned designer Catherine Pooley to discuss all things craft. We live in a mostly mass produced, machine made world of globalized banality. Interior spaces from north to south can look and feel the same. Yet as human beings, we revel in our individuality and we crave the means to add a personal stamp to the way we live and also to the spaces we inhabit. We yearn to possess things that are unique to us and that no one else can have. Artisan made items created by skilled and loving hands will deliver those special touches that make a room memorable and distinctive. But where should designers go to find these precious pieces? And how can craft makers find an appreciative audience for their work? And how can designers best explore and source from the vast range of crafts in existence? Welcome to the interior design business. I am delighted to be joined by an excellent panel of guests for this discussion. Welcome Natasha Mann, Louisa Pacifico, Kathryn Pooley, Claire Coles and Sam Fisher. Welcome all to the show. Now, before we begin, can you each give me a brief introduction to yourself and your business? Natasha, do you want to start? [00:01:27] Speaker B: So, yeah, My name is Natasha Mann and I'm the decorative artist. I work primarily with natural pigments and egg tempera and I do so panels in houses and buildings, interiors, lampshades and also painted objects. [00:01:41] Speaker A: Fantastic, Louisa. [00:01:43] Speaker C: So I'm not a craftsperson, I'm a business mentor for premium craft artisans. Run a business called Feature Icons. And on the side of actually this hand in hand with Feature Icons, I now curate an event for London Craft week called Feature Icons 6. [00:01:59] Speaker A: Fantastic. Catherine. [00:02:01] Speaker D: My name is Catherine Pooley. I am a British interior designer. We have 50 staff. We're interior architects and interior designers and we do most of our workers globally. [00:02:11] Speaker A: Claire. [00:02:12] Speaker E: Hello everyone. I'm Claire Coles. I'm a wallpaper artist. So I predominantly make custom made wallpapers combining paint, collage and embroidery. And everything I make is one off. So it's a very kind of bespoke process. [00:02:28] Speaker A: And last, but by no means least, Sam Fisher. [00:02:31] Speaker F: I'm Sam Fisher, the event director for Decorx, which is an exhibition for interior designers which runs in London every October. [00:02:40] Speaker A: Wonderful. Now I'm going to come to you, Louisa, first with this question. How do you actually define craft? [00:02:45] Speaker C: How do I define craft? Through skill, patience and love. [00:02:50] Speaker E: Really. [00:02:53] Speaker C: That's what craft is to me. It's pure passion and love that comes out of it. And a lot of hard work as well. [00:03:00] Speaker A: Indeed. Does that chime with you, Catherine? [00:03:02] Speaker D: I think it's so important that we hance onto what you do best because it is a dying trade and we need to keep training people the skills that we have because we live in a world now where luxury is everything. But what is luxury? Luxury is very different to many people. To me it's time. But to my clients, it is something that money can't buy. And when you find somebody like Natasha and I love Natasha's work, it is so individual, it's so time consuming. There's a lot of passion and love. As you said. You don't put a plate that's been hand painted in a dishwasher. It's come with a lot of labor of love. And I think that those sorts of things, you just can't buy them. [00:03:50] Speaker C: I'll just add to that as well. They're future heirlooms. [00:03:53] Speaker E: Yes, they are. [00:03:53] Speaker C: So invest well. It's all about sustainability as well. So enjoy it, love it, use it, repair it, hand it down. Quality always sells. [00:04:02] Speaker A: Indeed. Okay, craftspeople. Do you see yourself as a craftsperson, Natasha? [00:04:08] Speaker B: I mean, I don't really think of like a title when I was working, but I guess for me like craft or a craftsperson is someone who has acquired skills and spend time honing those and to create an end product. And I think that's the big distinction between mass produced products because it's all about getting to the end, it's not about the process. Whereas if you're a craftsperson, the process is everything and it's actually putting value on that process and actually really taking pleasure from it. So for me, all the steps to create a piece of work are really important and I never skimp on them at all. And it's that journey to get to the final piece and I think that makes the difference and that's what gives the quality at the end. [00:04:51] Speaker A: Do you agree with that, Claire? The process is everything. [00:04:54] Speaker E: Yeah, I mean, I think in my practice, sort of thinking how I've started out, it's like it's been a real journey and I'm always wanting to develop skills or try out new processes or and just, yeah, learn different materials. So for me it's all. Yeah, it's. I see craft very much about storytelling, that the piece you're purchasing has a story and a passion behind it. And yeah, it's not just about it being a functional thing. It's got like integrity and it's in its production, basically. [00:05:22] Speaker A: And how and where did you Train to become the person you are today. [00:05:26] Speaker E: So I was very lucky to do a degree in applied arts. I don't think there's many course. We're losing quite a lot of these crafts courses. But I was very lucky to do a degree in applied arts. And I spent pretty much every day of college, nine to five, in the workshops, just playing, playing with different material and trying to find what was my path, what was going to be my thing. But, yeah, I wouldn't have found that if I hadn't had that degree to actually just try out different mediums. [00:05:56] Speaker A: It was slightly different for you because I recall that you've spent a lot of time in North Africa particularly. [00:06:05] Speaker B: Well, I loved decorative painting and sort of beautiful interiors, and then it drew me to sort of North Africa, and I became fixated on sort of North African and Andalusian design. So I actually decided I wanted to [00:06:17] Speaker E: go and live there. [00:06:17] Speaker B: So I did a degree in Arabic first, and then I moved to Morocco and I spent a year doing a painting, architectural painting apprenticeship. And, yeah, the man who taught me was amazing. I mean, I was there for hours every day, and he sort of went through every single process. And then I came back to London and the only thing I hadn't learned there was sort of making my own paints. So we just used emulsion paints, which is what they use now there. So I actually went to the King's Foundation School of Traditional Arts and I did a degree there in, like, traditional geometry and traditional painting techniques. And that's kind of where I learned how to make my own paints, how to make my own materials. And it actually, that's what really gave me and taught me the importance of the kind of journey of creating your artwork and making everything yourself and knowing where everything comes. So everything I make, I know where it comes from. Like, all my paints are from earths I've collected, or I know where they're from. You know, I prepare all my boards with, like, rabbit skin glue. So I know exactly, like, how it's going to turn out in a way. And I, you know, I know it's all natural and. Can I ask a question? [00:07:24] Speaker D: I'm throwing a little bit off, so how do you. And it goes for you, too. You know, there's a lot of wallpaper companies that are rolled off. Right. Or different paintworks. What makes that particular client want what you offer? [00:07:38] Speaker B: Well, I mean, I kind of do more bespoke pieces, so it's a mix. [00:07:42] Speaker F: Actually. [00:07:43] Speaker B: I've had some people who come to me specifically because they're into the kind of Islamic design or they come to me for that reason and they're not so aware of the background of the paints or, you know, how they're made. And then some people are really interested in using pigments and actually they want me to use pigments from specific places that they're interest, you know, that hold a special meaning to them. So, yeah, I make, you know, everything's like a bespoke panel. [00:08:07] Speaker D: But do you think they're a particular type of person that really appreciates that the craft and the effort that's gone into it? [00:08:13] Speaker B: I mean, most people I've worked with have. I mean, when I've actually had direct gone directly through just a client to come to me, they're definitely keen. Sometimes when it's through an interior designer, it's more. I have to then explain the process because maybe they've seen an image and they're actually not aware of the process or the backstory. And so I think it depends. [00:08:32] Speaker D: So it's really. How do we educate the world together? [00:08:35] Speaker A: Completely. And just your two stories, very different as they are. It seems to me, Louisa, that everyone's got exactly that. An individual story. [00:08:44] Speaker C: Absolutely. I've got an individual story. And it is down to us educating them. As a curator, I look after or curate 40 to 50 artisans on stone, carved metal work, wallpaper, etc. And they've all got a different journey. Some are self taught, some have gone on apprenticeships or university degrees. But it's about. My job is to bring in the right footfall and educate people. So when I produce a show, I ensure my artisans are there. They're their best sales people as well, so I can bring the audience, but it's down to them to really, you know, express their passion, to say, look, this is reason. It's £3,000. Because in this amount of hours I've sourced this clay from a certain place or whatever it is. Other particular qualities that you look for from a individuality. I hate saying this, but, like, significant voice. I want to walk into their world and go, that's a Louisa Pacifico original instinct. Whereas, you know, I have a lot of people apply for my shows and I will give them feedback to say, come back once you've explored this series more. Because at the moment it's a bit fragmented. [00:09:55] Speaker A: Yeah. And Catherine, what is it that you actually look for in a. [00:10:01] Speaker D: So I feel that I'm very blessed. I work with a lot of clients that want something that nobody else has and that gives us an opportunity to go out there and really have a good look. We obviously have our own librarian, he's always going out there and trying to see what he can find. Quest at the King's Foundation. Always interesting to see what they're doing, but we're always looking for the unseen, the unknown. And I think our clients want that. Particularly I think in the Middle east, they don't want what their neighbors got, they want something completely unique. [00:10:35] Speaker A: So you've referenced a couple of places where you might go to find a craftsperson or a piece of art that you perhaps haven't thought about, or something being made in a completely unique way. But is there a formal process for interior designers to find these people? [00:10:52] Speaker D: Well, look, you're going to go for people like Fahmeed, you know for me, don't you, who I think tries to find some artisans, is obviously going to be a little bit more of a procurement there. But there are. Yeah, we're always seeking. We will go out, we will hunt down whatever we can find. And a lot of it is word of mouth, I think too. [00:11:08] Speaker C: Yeah, it's word of mouth water, as well as try and step in as a mentor, business coach for them. I'm the in between person, between Catherine from the studio and the artist. So you can talk to me directly, say, this is what I'm looking for. And, you know, it's confidence as well. You know, I started design myself and a lot of artists have confidence issues and I completely get that. So there's a big balance with it, isn't it? [00:11:35] Speaker D: It's also timing. Weirdly, you know, a lot of firm rings, suppliers, for example, will come in and say, why haven't you remembered me? And I'm like, I'm doing, you know, 42 projects and it's about what you see at that time, but. And that's like, gosh, Natasha, you know, I could have used to hear here and here, but because she wasn't the forefront of my mind, you just forget this. It's so fast that the world will live it. [00:11:55] Speaker A: And I get to flip that over to you, Clare. I mean, how do you get found? [00:11:58] Speaker E: Well, I sort of mentioned earlier that basically sometimes I'll say to you, well, how did that. How did that person find you? Or how did that brand find you? And sometimes it might be that they picked up a postcard off your stand, you know, like three years ago, and it's been sitting on a wall. So sometimes it's quite hard to trace, like, you know, where the work's coming from. But I think for me, so Once you get those good relationships with interior designers and they've seen that you've produced something beautiful and the client likes it, those interior designers will come back and if they understand your process, they'll keep coming back and they'll feel confident to use you. I think that's the only thing that I probably struggle with at the moment is when you've got a brand new interior designer that maybe doesn't know your work and you're trying to explain the process of commission or what it is. Yeah, how I work and they maybe they've got to then like translate that then to a third party. It's quite, sometimes can be quite a long process and that's probably the, that's probably the bit that I find the hardest in my practice actually is that kind of. I love the making, but it's kind of that journey. [00:13:00] Speaker D: Another very interesting question to ask, if you don't mind me saying this for both of you is cost. Because I presume, and also to you, but I presume because it's bespoke and it's handcrafted, the hours, therefore the price is going to be more true, false, necessary. [00:13:18] Speaker E: I mean, I think if I compare myself to other sort of handmade wallpapers out there, I think my price points probably relatively similar. But I think I sometimes always underprice myself. Yeah. And you think something always then takes longer than, than you expected. And I think being, you know, that that kind of like we're talking about confidence is like I am confident in my own, in my work. But you still have those moments, especially when you're like a sole, you know, sole trader and you're on your own thinking is this good? Is it going to be okay? Is the price okay? And normally it's absolutely fine. But I still have those moments of doubt. Luckily I'm in a studio with some other makers and actually we have this bit of network to talking things through. But yeah, it can be. Yeah. [00:14:02] Speaker D: Because it's not just them coming to us. We've then got to take it to the client and say this is why you've got, it's more expensive but my goodness, you're getting something else that everybody else has got. [00:14:13] Speaker A: I don't know. Are artisan made materials naturally more expensive [00:14:17] Speaker D: Anyway, I think it's more of a time. [00:14:19] Speaker E: Yeah, definitely it's time. [00:14:22] Speaker D: Yeah. So very quickly just drag racing up. So my father makes swords for the. [00:14:28] Speaker A: He makes swords. [00:14:29] Speaker D: He makes swords. Okay. And every single sword is handmade. He is the. And he's 91 yesterday bless him. So. And he is there grinding at 91, but he loves it. And it's just like your work. It's so specific and detailed. And he's in a little. You're not allowed to call it a factory. It's a workshop. And you've got artisans there from, you know, been there with him for 30 years. And that's what I love. It's a community. And giving your passion, which you mentioned, [00:15:00] Speaker C: and handing down, you know, nurturing the next generation. I'm a big believer in trying to encourage the artisans that I've worked with to take on apprenticeships. [00:15:08] Speaker A: And, Sam, you had a bit of a role in Claire and Natasha's breakthrough. So do you want to just talk a little bit about how you. [00:15:16] Speaker F: Yeah, sure. So, at Decorx, I think we figured it out. It's about five years ago, we started an element at decorex called Making Spaces, which essentially is kind of application process for makers to apply to be part of this area at decorex. And we're looking for people that can really show the process interactively during the show. So in the end, we have some lovely judges, including my good friend Louisa over there, who choose about 15 makers to be a part of this area. And it really gives a platform, I think. And I guess these guys can tell as well to just. To a different audience, I guess. Like, I don't know if you've exhibited other places and, you know, future icons do the same thing, but I think we. We have, you know, 80% of our audience is interior designers. So it's a really good platform, I think, for makers to really show the process of what they're doing. And as you said before, having the time to really talk the visitor through what they're doing. And I think through that. We've then met Natasha and Claire, who have. Well, Natasha's been a part of our. Or did our creative. Sorry, our creative campaign last year for decorex. So you would have seen Natasha's work across all our adverts and website and on site on the signage. And then Clare this year is taking the baton over to do the same. So we're really excited to see how that turns out. [00:16:41] Speaker A: And as a maker, Natasha, what was that experience like for you doing Making Spaces? [00:16:46] Speaker B: Oh, it was wonderful. I mean, they're all so lovely at Decor X, so it was actually a really, really, really nice process. [00:16:53] Speaker D: And you kind of gave me complete [00:16:54] Speaker B: freedom to make what I wanted. So I kind of tried to create a design inspired by the building, and it's a Victorian building, so I did a sort of Victorian tile pattern. But, yeah, I was, like, really impressed how you kind of translated the painting onto. Into the printing. And also, obviously with hand painting, you know, nothing's ever completely perfect. And it's actually really nice how you kind of kept that with the printing. So you can see it's still handprint, hand painted originally. [00:17:21] Speaker F: Yeah, I think it's really nice. We've kind of used makers from Making Spaces to use in our creative campaign for the last few years. And it's, you know, creating an individual pattern every year rather than us. In the old days, you like photoshoots of furniture and lighting and everything, and then it's too biased to one exhibitor or everything. So I think actually using people that we've worked with and kind of carrying on that Making Spaces journey for them, if this really worked out really well for us and hopefully them, it's an [00:17:49] Speaker C: amazing opportunity for you guys. And, you know, this is a bit of a curveball as well for you, because it's a completely different process from what you usually do. [00:17:57] Speaker B: Definitely debrief. [00:17:59] Speaker E: And I think it's great. [00:18:01] Speaker A: And I'd imagine it's incredibly useful for designers to see how things are made, because you need to educate yourselves about that. [00:18:08] Speaker D: Absolutely, yeah. It's fantastic. Natasha came in and actually did a lovely demonstration. [00:18:13] Speaker A: And Clare, you've sort of grown with decorex over the last few years. You're telling me. [00:18:18] Speaker E: Fortunate enough to be. I think it was. I think we worked out. It was the first year of making two, actually. All right, sorry. [00:18:25] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:18:26] Speaker E: I mean, it was, you know, to take on, you know, a stand at a show like Decor X, you know, it's quite a big investment. So having the. Having Making Spaces is an opportunity to see is this show going to be right for me? Am I going to meet the right people? Am I going to have the right conversations? And I mean, I loved it that. That first year I did it, I set up. I had my. Some gold leaf wallpaper, I had paints and I had people just coming past and watching me paint and it. And then it really, you know, I didn't just have the work on the wall, they could really see that process of making. And when you speak to the interior designers that go around, you'll find that a lot of them, their favorite space at the show is the main spaces. And then I was fortunate to. Then the next year I came back and there was a Making Spaces one year on, and then met some other lovely makers on that stand. And then I did a group show with two of them in the main hall this year. So I've had this sort of progression of a journey and then I come back and I've got a bigger stone machine. [00:19:21] Speaker D: Wow. [00:19:21] Speaker A: Fantastic. For nearly half a century, one name has defined excellence in luxury interior design. Decorex isn't simply an exhibition. It's the UK's most prestigious destination where the finest design minds converge. From the 11th to the 14th of October, Decorex will take place at Olympia. You'll discover new brands making their debut alongside established names, witness groundbreaking collaborations and explore entirely new creative spaces. Whether you're designing residential environments or luxury hospitality spaces, these fresh brands and collaborations alongside emerging talented will seamlessly elevate your vision. You'll gain exclusive access to more than 85 interior design thought leaders through inspiring design talks, intimate roundtables. And you can watch firsthand the craft that goes into our industry's unique products through our making spaces area. With a strong focus on connecting brands and clients to drive meaningful business opportunities, your Single Pass unlocks four full days of access to DecorX. For those who shape the future of interiors, DecorX 2026 at the transformed Olympia venue represents more than inspiration. It's an opportunity to discover and witness the future of design. I am interested, Catherine, in how a designer works with makers. So could you just talk us through how you think about applying what a maker does in practice? Because you can't use what Claire or Natasha do everywhere. So what's the process for you like? [00:20:58] Speaker D: So it really depends on the client, it really depends on the house and it obviously depends on the culture of that, what the house is. But generally speaking, we would. For example, I'm trying to do one downstairs now and I've got till this afternoon to get it right. But it's a matter of trying to find the right artisan for the right area and the right job for the house and getting them in, getting them to educate us on what you do. What can you do? We might push their boundaries a bit and say, look, they want this, can you do that? So it's about working together with them, but making sure they really explain their capabilities. [00:21:33] Speaker A: How do you find working with interior designers, Natasha? [00:21:36] Speaker B: I've actually really enjoyed it because it does sort of push you, because quite often, if it's just me and a client, it's sort of more in a comfort zone of what I normally do. And with interior designers, I've always been pushed to do things slightly different, sometimes completely different, and then, so for me, it's actually been quite satisfying. And then also I Find it sort of helps a bit because then it takes away a lot of the admin side because the interior designer's dealings with the client. [00:22:03] Speaker D: So I think the biggest, the hardest job for us is trying to get the message from the client and then handing it over. And because they're such creatives, they tend to understand it more than the client does. [00:22:13] Speaker A: And do you use somebody like Louisa as a. As a bridge to find the right person? [00:22:21] Speaker C: No, but. So when people apply for my show, I do interview them as well, because I want Catherine Fulley Studio and her team to come to my show, but I want to ensure the artisans I'm showing are ready to be able to take orders as well. I found something I used to work on, new designers, such as Graduate Showcase, I remember. [00:22:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:41] Speaker F: Years ago. [00:22:43] Speaker C: And a lot of them want to do my show, but they're not ready. I was like, is your studio ready? Package every fine detail. It was like, come back to me three, four years time. When you're ready, then do the shapes. I'm not about to take their money and yes, I'll have a nice experience, but it's not going to go anywhere for them because it's going to upset you in the long run as well if you're working with someone who isn't, you know, qualified to deliver on time. [00:23:08] Speaker D: I think that's a very good point. Generally speaking, most of our properties are large properties. You know, we're looking at minimum, minimum 20 to 40,000 square feet. And for poor Natasha to have to then do the ceiling, let's say, of 60,000 square foot, she's going to be on her back for months and she's got to be capable of doing that. [00:23:27] Speaker B: Well, I actually do it while I'm in panels and then install it. [00:23:31] Speaker D: Can she do that in two months? [00:23:33] Speaker E: What are my clients want? [00:23:34] Speaker D: You know, there's a lot of lead times. [00:23:35] Speaker A: Must be another big issue for you. Yeah, yeah. [00:23:40] Speaker D: And we're always pushing boundaries. Unfortunately, that's what this is where you're [00:23:43] Speaker C: going to have apprenticeships, you know, apprentices here, so you can bring your skill set, teach them your way and then hopefully it can be done within two months. [00:23:51] Speaker E: There we go. [00:23:52] Speaker D: We push them back a bit. [00:23:53] Speaker A: And I'm also intrigued by the. The are they ready? Kind of conversation, because one of your concerns surely must be, is this person going to stay in business for the length of the project to complete it? [00:24:06] Speaker D: I think that's any, Any business right now. Yeah, there's going to be a certain element of that, but I think it's really important to try to trust them and invest in them and give them a chance, especially if you think their product is sensational. [00:24:18] Speaker C: Well, this is why I've never held an online gallery. For example, during COVID the artists were like, louisa, invest in the gallery. [00:24:24] Speaker D: Bloody. [00:24:24] Speaker C: But it's like, you have to have an emotional connection with this work if you're going to invest X amount of thousands of pounds. That's why I always do live shows and decorate perfect for that. My show is great for that as well. When you meet the artist, you see the work, you touch it, you smell it and then you have that connection. Whereas, you know, you're asking, I don't know, 500 pound per square meter for some printed wallpaper online. You're gonna get the sales just on that? I don't think so. [00:24:52] Speaker A: Do you feel under pressure as a micro business, Claire? Do you even describe yourself as a micro business? I don't know. [00:24:57] Speaker E: Yeah. Half the time I don't know what you're. Am I an artist? Am I a craft person? Am I, you know, what, you know, what am I? But yeah, I think spread. You have to spread yourself across so many sort of heads when, you know, when you're a crossword like, you know, I'm doing my own marketing, I'm doing my own, you know, I'm doing the making. But I think what we do have is because, you know, if we ask if we're even if we're an individual maker or a small business, we do have sometimes quite a lot of flexibility. So if you came to me and said, right, I've got this deadline, I'm going to work my heart and soul to get that done. And I want it to be, I want it to look amazing and I want it to be the, you know, the best work for them and for myself as an artisan. So I think, although, you know, you have these kind of, yeah, it is tough, maybe going to a smaller studio. There are, you know, you might feel like there's risks. You get this really personalized experience of dealing with that, you know, that one. You're, you're dealing with the artist, you're having direct conversations with them, which is, you know, I found when I've, you know, when I've worked with interior designers and then sometimes the client wants to be involved in the process as well. They want to come to the studio and I say, well, which fabrics do you like? And like. And then they, they're on the journey as well, and they love that. So when they've got this piece in their home. They can be like, I picked that flower or that's. Yeah, that. I really love those colors. And Claire, you know, twisted and turned her work to make it like that. [00:26:21] Speaker A: And you talked about storytelling earlier, I think, Louisa, didn't you? And that is a. A huge part of what you do and a huge part of the attraction for the client, I'd imagine. [00:26:28] Speaker D: I think it's a bit like shopping. It's a bit like we're bored of. Of High Street. Whether it's the same big brands, it's just big brands that are. We want those little booty. [00:26:38] Speaker C: You'll buy advertising, quite frankly. Sorry. [00:26:41] Speaker D: Yeah, I agree. [00:26:41] Speaker C: Whereas in my home, very, very individual at home. But I literally know pretty much every artwork or piece I've got and the story behind it. And I poor people to death about it, but, you know, this is my little museum. [00:26:56] Speaker A: Sounds really entertaining. Going to your hairstyle. [00:26:58] Speaker F: Done a podcast from there next time. [00:27:02] Speaker A: Do you find it intimidating when you're. You're faced with sort of scaling up to a big project, Natasha? [00:27:09] Speaker B: Well, I mean, like Claire was saying, because when you're on your own, you are quite flexible. So I actually have a studio I've got. I'm at Cockpit Arts in Bloomsbury, so I've got a shared space there. I also have a studio at home. So quite often if I, you know, have a deadline or something that is bigger than what I can actually do during the day, I do work in the evening. And, you know, because I love what I do, I don't mind doing that at all. And, you know, if I have a deadline, you know, I make it happen. But, you know, also I'm realistic. Sometimes there's some things I just can't do and then, you know, have to be honest about it or at the thing, it's either you get someone in to help you or it's just not possible. But that's why it's really important having those conversations at the beginning. And, you know, you do your best to see how it could work. [00:27:50] Speaker A: And do you think you're a natural storyteller yourself, or is that something you rely on the interior designer to do for you? [00:27:56] Speaker B: I don't know. I just don't really. I'm more of a maker, I think. I mean, there is a story in, like, when I'm doing my own work, for instance, all my pigments are all from other places. And I love when I see one of my paintings, I kind of see lots of different places because I know where. How Each color's been made, so that's a story in itself. But I don't sort of actively think about it. It just sort of happens, really. [00:28:20] Speaker D: I think Natasha's being very humble. I actually think that when you. When you love something as much as clearly they do, that they're the best storytellers, without a doubt. [00:28:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Better. Better than you doing it on one. Yeah. Interesting. What do you think about that, Sam? [00:28:37] Speaker F: Yeah, absolutely. I think everyone we've had at Decor X, or everyone I've met, luckily through the industry, I just think rather than like an established brand, they've also got their own story. But an established brand selling furniture and things like that. I just think you've probably got a sales staff or someone talking to you about this piece of furniture and it feels really salesy. But I think when you speak to one of these guys about their products, I think it's just. It's the passion again, but it's the. Yeah, the storytelling. I mean, there's. They've got a story even from when. How they've, you know, been through their career. To get to that point, I think is just the most interesting thing about. About it, as we've kind of said. [00:29:14] Speaker A: And I'm sure the designer's role is figuring out the client who loves to tell stories about the. The pieces that they've got in their house. Surely. I mean, they must. You must think they're going to love sitting back talking with their friends over a drink about this table or this piece of artwork on the wall. [00:29:29] Speaker D: I think the cost now of interior design is so astronomically expensive. Do you remember in the days when we. When we might have bought a house? And it was normally in Those days, about 10% for the build work, and now it's 100%, isn't it? And I just think that if we're going to do a job, do it well and use the best people to bring a story. A bit like your house, where it's more of a museum, where they gathered things from around the world. [00:29:55] Speaker C: So as well make sure they're quality products. Yeah. [00:29:58] Speaker E: Systems. [00:29:58] Speaker D: Yes to satar. [00:29:59] Speaker E: Is there a bun classic? [00:30:01] Speaker A: You mentioned heirlooms of tomorrow. I mean, is that. Is that really important for clients too, [00:30:07] Speaker D: that they're thinking, when did you last do your house? You're meant to do it every 10, 20 years. Yeah. I'm funny enough doing a project right now. The client hasn't done it for 26 years. And that shows the real test of time. And that's what you want to be Doing, in my opinion. And that's. That's quality. [00:30:21] Speaker C: I'm waiting for our kitchen to last 25 years. The cost, it's expensive. [00:30:27] Speaker A: Are you conscious of creating heirlooms in your work? [00:30:29] Speaker E: I think the thing is, because when I'm. You're installing a wallpaper, this is the thing it's different from maybe if you've commissioned, you know, beautiful, I don't know, you know, a table, that thing's good. [00:30:39] Speaker A: Or a piece of sculpture. [00:30:41] Speaker E: But. So you do have this series, like. Oh, one day they're going to rip that wall, you know, in like 10 years. I mean, so that I do sell a lot of my work as, like, as panels now. So there's that option of like you actually. We can take it off the walls afterwards, we can frame afterwards. It could move with you because it. Yeah. So I find. I like to have that kind of. Yeah. Option with. Within my work. But, you know, I hope, I hope that, you know, someone has my work and it's going to be passed down, you know. [00:31:08] Speaker A: I love that you're consciously thinking about that. That's really interesting. What about you, Natasha? [00:31:13] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I mean, when I do work in. For interiors, it's always on panels because with egg tempera, you have to paint on wood and I, I have to do it flat, really. I mean, I can do it upright, but it's a lot harder. So everything's on panel. So in theory, you know, you install it, but then you can remove it straight away and then it could be a framed painting. So I do think of it in that way. And then a lot of the objects I do, you know, I hope, you know, they, they do get cherished and get kept. Yeah. [00:31:39] Speaker A: Do you think you might end up in an art gallery eventually somewhere? [00:31:43] Speaker B: Who knows? [00:31:46] Speaker A: What about you, Louisa? What's your thinking around that heirlooms of tomorrow? [00:31:49] Speaker C: There's a client I'm seeing tomorrow called Zoe Wilson. She's a stone carver, part of Quest as well. I mean, these objects are just insane, quite frankly. And they're all. They've been in the geometry with it, but I instantly see it as an artwork as well as a sculpture. [00:32:05] Speaker A: You're a curator, aren't you? [00:32:06] Speaker C: Yeah, well, personally I am, but just looking at these objects, I. I come from a business point of view as well, about. Okay, your artwork is for ceilings, but yes. Let's try and talk to the galleries about how that's an offshoot. [00:32:20] Speaker A: And Catherine, when you're managing client expectations, working with makers, there are none. [00:32:26] Speaker D: Well, I mean, you've got no expectations. [00:32:30] Speaker A: You've talked about price, you've talked about timelines. Anything else that you. [00:32:35] Speaker D: To be an interior designer, to be a really good salesperson, actually, because everything we're doing is selling to them and, [00:32:42] Speaker C: yeah, it's educating them as well why they're purchasing these over that. [00:32:48] Speaker A: And because the pieces are so individual, how do you deal with the situation where the client might say, well, that's not quite what I expected. [00:32:55] Speaker D: So I think it's about getting the brief first and making sure it's matching what they're wanting. Hopefully understanding the client at the very beginning will help you match the product. You don't want to get it wrong, especially if there's cost involved. That is quite important. [00:33:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you find that helpful that interior designers are helping to manage those client expectations? [00:33:16] Speaker B: Yeah, it can be really helpful, actually. But, I mean, sometimes, you know, it is easier actually just to speak to them directly. So quite often when I have work with designers, I've ended up speaking to the client as well, just because, you know, not everything's fully understood and they quite want to ask me more questions or change anything. [00:33:35] Speaker D: I think in bespoke work, they normally see a sample anyway, so they know what they're getting. And you've also got to explain to them, look, it's, you know, an artisan that's doing it. It's not a hand machine. There's going to be, I don't know, a line that's wonky. As long as you explain that to them up front, that they'll appreciate, actually, that wonkiness. [00:33:52] Speaker A: So you welcome the client being quite close to your work automatically? [00:33:56] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:33:56] Speaker E: I mean, I think the reason I like working in interiors is that I like the idea that I'm twisting and adapting my work to a brief. I find that exciting and it sometimes pushes my work in a direction I wouldn't think of. So, yeah, I like that. I mean, within reason, I will say I'm really bad at geometry. Like, the idea of your work, like, I am like swirling, flowing brushstrokes. So, you know, I'll be very clear. Like, there was an interior designer came to me after decorex and was like, would you be able to do this embroidery? And I was like, no, I would not be able to do that embroidery. It's completely out of my cup. So this is what I do and there's no point wasting any time, you know, But I will always provide a sample and a layout drawing of how I imagine the. The work to. To be. But the client has to Be almost just faith that I will deliver it because I can't show exactly what I'm going to be making. [00:34:54] Speaker D: Do you both. Do you charge for samples? [00:34:57] Speaker E: I do now, yeah. Well, it depends. It depends who wine it houses. Yeah. [00:35:01] Speaker B: Not very much [00:35:06] Speaker E: mine. It comes off then if the commission goes forward, it will just come on. Although. Yeah. And I think it does. Then you really get a sense of. Right. They do really want to use you. Because if they're look. If an interior designer is looking at maybe 10 different people, you know, for a project and sometimes they went, you know, you don't know that. You don't. I don't. Now, I don't know whether I should ask that question. Like, how. How many, you know, wallpaper, you know, art stands are you looking at. But you can get an, you know, you can get an idea very straight off. Right. This is. This is quite a. Yeah. They are thinking seriously about. [00:35:36] Speaker C: But that's very important a lot in my. [00:35:39] Speaker D: Okay. [00:35:39] Speaker C: I've been running future icons nine years. Claire was actually an early client and many, many of my clients were not getting paid for the R D. And it take them a week and they're a sole trader. So that's where I put my foot down. I was like, no, if they can't afford your, you know, day rate up front with the promise you'll take it off afterwards, then they're not the right client for you. So again, it's building on that confidence to make sure. [00:36:04] Speaker D: It's very hard though, because even as a designer now, I might have to pitch, but free of charge. Some appearances, some aren't, and it's a lot of time. But, you know, in this market you can't be fussy. [00:36:16] Speaker E: I normally have a selection of samples just in the studio available. So if you needed a sample, I would just. I would send you one. [00:36:23] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:36:24] Speaker E: You know, if you're like, I've got this meeting. I was like, it might not be the right colors or. Exactly, exactly right. But just have the sense of the material. Because my work's very textural. And I think until you see it in the flesh, it doesn't really, you know, it doesn't sell itself until you're actually physically touching it and seeing how it is in the light. [00:36:39] Speaker C: So there's a difference. So if they're buying Claire Cole's a brand, then. Yeah, of course you've got examples. But if they're asking for something very specific to me charging. [00:36:49] Speaker E: Yeah. [00:36:50] Speaker A: Do you feel the same, Natasha? [00:36:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, at the moment I've been Doing a lot of lamp shapes and it's quite difficult because obviously they're not huge. But then I have to create a design which takes time and it's. I can't charge like a load extra on top of then the painting. But normally someone comes to me and there's never a question they're not really going to go through with it. So I've never had a situation where I've spent ages doing a preliminary design and then it's not really gone through. [00:37:16] Speaker D: But. [00:37:17] Speaker B: Yeah, for smaller objects, I think that's. I mean, for bigger things it's different, but for small things, I think it's quite hard to just charge an extra [00:37:23] Speaker D: day of R D. Yeah. [00:37:26] Speaker B: For when it's actually only a lampshade [00:37:29] Speaker C: already looking a little bit. It's very, very specifically different. I don't know. [00:37:34] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:37:34] Speaker C: Equally, perhaps you're not the right artist if it is so dramatically different. [00:37:38] Speaker E: Yeah. Does that make sense? [00:37:39] Speaker F: Yeah. [00:37:40] Speaker A: So here's your chance, Louisa. Where should designers go to find the makers of Tomorrow [00:37:48] Speaker C: Icon select in Maine? Thank you very much. [00:37:53] Speaker F: October. [00:37:55] Speaker C: October. [00:37:56] Speaker A: Are there any other places beyond those two that we've already referenced? [00:37:59] Speaker C: The King's Foundation. Quest Decorates are all partners of my show. Anyway, new designers for very, very, very early stage people. And then there is an organization called Home Faber. I've been working with them recently and they've got their Craft Biennale in Venice in 2026. So even if you can't go, perhaps look at the social media, because there's selecting up to 700 artisans worldwide. [00:38:30] Speaker A: And where would you go, Sam, to connect with the makers of the future? [00:38:37] Speaker F: Well, we're lucky enough that actually, you know, a lot of them come to us to be a part of it. But I also go to, you know, other places like future Icons and like events and Craft week and things like that during the year. Just that we can kind of keep on our toes and. And see who else is out there, really. [00:38:54] Speaker A: How long ago did you start making spaces? [00:38:57] Speaker F: So we started making spaces around five years ago. Started quite small with just, I think two or three or four makers or a few from Quest as well. And then we kind of grown it with help from Louisa and Quest and Cockpit and other associations. And I guess we wanted to look at, you know, the fact that decorate is 48 years old. You know, it's a very established brand with some of very loyal and established brands that have been with us, exhibiting with us for the past. [00:39:32] Speaker D: So maybe 48 years. Yeah. [00:39:34] Speaker C: Wow. [00:39:35] Speaker D: I did decorate my first year, 22 years ago, really? [00:39:38] Speaker E: That's 48. [00:39:39] Speaker C: Incredible. [00:39:42] Speaker F: So, yeah, it's a really established brand. And so we just wanted, alongside the kind of loyal and established brands that, you know, everyone knows, really, to bring in a bit more of that craft element and to show some more unique pieces, because obviously that was, you know, craftsmanship has been around more than Decorex. I think it's just putting a spotlight on it, really. And I think that was necessary in those times and still is. But we hope that that platform really kind of grows them and provides a different audience for them to sort of sell their products. [00:40:11] Speaker C: 100 it has. I know when on the year two, I was starting to help out with you, and I know obviously many of the artists, they got one, one of them, not going to name names, got five commissions before that. Yeah. Between October and December. [00:40:25] Speaker E: Yeah. [00:40:26] Speaker C: It's just like, brilliant. Then they came back before. [00:40:30] Speaker F: And I think, as Claire said before, is our most loved area at the show. Some people just come to see that, to be honest. But it's a really lovely kind of fresh aspects of the show alongside all our other royal exhibitors. [00:40:45] Speaker A: Do you enjoy it, Catherine? Do your team visit Making Spaces, particularly? [00:40:49] Speaker E: We're at Jackrax every year. [00:40:51] Speaker D: Yeah, we support you. [00:40:56] Speaker A: Good. I think. I think the feedback you get is phenomenal, isn't it? [00:40:59] Speaker F: We're really lucky just to be able to put these guys on a platform and for them to just have such great work to be able to show. [00:41:05] Speaker A: And how can designers interact with what you're offering there at Making Spaces? [00:41:10] Speaker F: So all the makers, one thing they do have to be able to do is show their work interactively. It's part of the whole concept of it. But alongside that, we also have workshops. So some of the makers then can put on these sort of very small workshops within the show so that visitors can come along and, you know, work with them to create something which is also lovely. [00:41:33] Speaker A: Fantastic. Right, I'm going to round this up with one final question, which you're all going to get. So I don't know who. Who feels comfortable starting this off, but most memorable crafted piece that you have ever encountered and what made it so special? Who wants to take that first? [00:41:50] Speaker E: So I was ready. [00:41:54] Speaker A: Go on, Claire. [00:41:55] Speaker E: Right. Well, I have been around crafted things for, like, 20 years, since I sort of graduated. There's a lot of things I've loved, but there's something I saw recently that I was just like, that is incredible. I don't know if it's just because it was ceramic and I've always wanted to be a good ceramicist. And I mean, I can dabble bum, but there's a lady, she's done this Marie Antoinette ceramic, thick ceramic piece in the VA at the moment. [00:42:22] Speaker C: Okay. [00:42:23] Speaker E: So there's around 4,500 pieces of ceramic doing this mural. And what I love about it is every little piece of ceramic is handcrafted. But then she's, you know, she's scaled it up to this, you know, mural, and it's just. Yeah, it's just a very beautiful piece. And it's lovely to see that the V and Air commissioning work like that. [00:42:46] Speaker A: It really is. [00:42:46] Speaker E: Yeah. And to see. Yeah. So that's one of my kind of favorite pieces. [00:42:51] Speaker A: Okay. [00:42:52] Speaker D: So I collect pens. I'm going to say, before my memory goes, I collect ink pens. And I think one of the nicest pieces that I have, and I have it in my bag and take everywhere with me is a beautiful enamel ink pen. It's all been hand created and it's got the skyline of, you know, London, London Bridge, etc. But it's very beautiful. It's with turquoise enamel and it's been made by a company, Cookley. Okay. [00:43:16] Speaker C: I've been fortunate enough that I've been gifted a lot over the years, you know, in the industry. 21 years. [00:43:22] Speaker A: Going back to your house again. [00:43:25] Speaker C: For my 10 20th anniversary of my husband, he bought a piece of my show. Future Icon selects by Olga Prinku. She hand collects flowers from the local fields, dyes them and embroiders them into heat, this beautiful mesh work. And it's now hanging in our hallway. And I love it, looking at it every day. [00:43:50] Speaker B: Oh, goodness. Well, my great grandfather was a wood carver in France and my mum has inherited a load of his carvings and a lot of things he made that are quite like. He made a nativity scene and there's a crucifix. And I actually don't even have them because my parents have them, but they're actually my favorite things and I absolutely love them. And I never met him, but I just love. Just by seeing them, I kind of imagine what he was like and imagine him making them. [00:44:20] Speaker A: Sam, have you got one? [00:44:23] Speaker F: I've got a couple, but I think we used to do another area at decorites many years ago before this, which was kind of pushing towards craft. But Marcin Rusak, do you know him? [00:44:32] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. [00:44:33] Speaker F: He's like pressed flowers inside tabletops and [00:44:39] Speaker D: what were those things called? [00:44:40] Speaker F: Separators. Screens. [00:44:43] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:44:44] Speaker F: Enter screens. And I just remember the being so beautiful. And he was also very very lovely. So that's one of my big memories. [00:44:53] Speaker A: Well, wonderful. Thank you all so much. It's been a lovely conversation. I've learned a lot and I hope you've enjoyed it too. Thanks so much everyone for sharing your insights today. And thanks also to Catherine and her students Studio team for hosting us here today in this beautiful boardroom. And thanks also to Decorex for partnering with us on this episode. We do hope you've enjoyed the show and please do get in touch on our social channels. Nterior Design BusinessPod to share any feedback. The interior design business is a Wildwood plus production. Thank you.