[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the interior design business. My name is Geoff Hayward and I'm joined by my co host, Susie Rumbold, past president of the British Institute of Interior Design and creative Director of Tsuto Interiors, in front of a live audience of designers at the Design Central Northwest event, Capstone hall in Cheshire.
A short promotional message before we start the series is actually sponsored by one of the exhibitors here, so please, please, please go and see naturalmat because they are very supportive of us. So I'd be very grateful if you did that.
Okay. Today we will be discussing awkward clients and how to manage them.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: It has often been said that interior design would be a great job if it wasn't for the clients. They can be unappreciative, indecisive and unreasonable even when their project is on track, and bellicose, belligerent and litigious when things begin to go wrong. In fact, the designer client relationship, which often starts as a love affair, can sometimes end tragically in the bitterest of divorces.
But is there really such a thing as an awkward client? Or are any problems just down to poor communication?
What can make a good client turn bad? And how can designers effectively manage this most important and sensitive of relationships? Welcome to the interior design clothing business.
[00:01:30] Speaker A: Now we are joined by two Northern Design Award winners for this discussion. Simon Mayhew from Textured and James Roberts from James Roberts Interiors. Welcome both to the show.
[00:01:40] Speaker C: Thank you very much.
[00:01:41] Speaker B: So now, before we begin, I was hoping that you might just take a couple of minutes, each of you, to give us a brief introduction to yourselves, your practices, the types of projects that you do and how long you've been in operation.
[00:01:51] Speaker D: So.
[00:01:52] Speaker B: So, Simon, do you want to go first?
[00:01:53] Speaker D: Yeah.
So my name's Simon.
I spent the beginning of my career, 10 years on the West End in musicals. And then I launched my own agency and so I then became an agent for actors.
So I was amazed how many skills are transferred from dealing with celebrity clients in TV and film to just normal clients. It's exactly the same. They're all the same, which has been wild.
I've got a studio called Textured in Spinnig Builds in Manchester and we do high end residential and commercial projects. And we're now going into our third year.
[00:02:25] Speaker B: And James.
[00:02:26] Speaker C: Okay. My name is James Roberts. I started out in engineering, so I came from quite a different background.
Then Strawson at Sandhurst, which is relevant probably for a conversation later. Always knew I wanted to be a product designer, design things, and moved on to Royal College Bar in London to do industrial Design, product design there, worked in consultancy in product design for about five years and then moved into packaging design, graphic design, furniture design into interiors. And the practice has been going for about 15 years purely in interiors. And here we are today, also a high end resi and commercial projects.
[00:03:05] Speaker A: Fantastic. So let's talk about getting off on the right foot with clients when you're taking an initial brief. Simon, do you want to take this, this one? How do you make sure that you have really nailed down those essential client requirements?
[00:03:21] Speaker D: I think when I first meet the client, I get into a place where it's super relaxed.
I love getting into, I sit with a coffee, I, I, I tell them a lot about my life. So they reopen about their brief and kind of really what they're wanting. And then as we're going through the concept stage, it's really, I always sort of say you've got to really imagine you being here. We're having a thing at the minute where we're putting this beautiful curved door in and the client wants doors, wanted doors to go in but there's a step into their new kitchen and she adamant she wants the doors. But I was like really think about how that step is going to feel with the door. So that's how I really try and keep to the brief because they wanted a really nice free flowing space. So it's just going over everything really, really early on and really sort of getting their reactions to the suggestions that you're giving.
[00:04:10] Speaker A: Kearney, Same for you, James?
[00:04:11] Speaker C: Yeah, I'd say looking back to product days, I think a lot of buyers have made buying decisions not based on conscious thought, a lot of subconscious thought. And so we're designing triggers so that someone would buy a certain product. And the same with interiors. And I think for me it's a question of time.
It's not great commercially but the more time we can give at the front end of the project to understand the problem in its fullest, the better.
Because what a client will tell you day one is not what they want. We don't know, but we have to obviously go down that journey. Question why, what if? And so that.
[00:04:53] Speaker B: So do you have ways that you operate where you can test the accuracy of a brief?
[00:04:59] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely.
[00:05:00] Speaker B: Stress tested?
[00:05:01] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely.
Without knowing what the answer is. It's not to prejudge or preload or assume what the correct answer is. But yeah, definitely, we kind of, you give a client what they're asking for your interpretation of it. Left of center, right of center, curveball. It's a bit like in place, in the sun. Those kind of programs where there's always that wild card because you know that a client, when presented something that they not familiar with, there's a good chance they'll bite.
And I think getting them on the back foot, a client on the back foot early, is a great way to put you in a position of leadership. And I think that's it, that there is a. Initially, you're going to them with a question, what would you like? Which puts them in that driving seat and I think to quickly get them out of that and for you to lead is where you want to be.
[00:05:51] Speaker A: That's a really good point.
[00:05:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Simon?
[00:05:54] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree.
[00:05:55] Speaker D: I think just kind of what you're saying about, you know, getting exactly what they're wanting and just sort of giving them new ideas because they brought you in for new ideas. So you've got to try and gauge how moldable they're going to be, because some just aren't moldable. And you're just sort of giving them what. Exactly what they want, which you need to, obviously, because they're at home. But the idea bringing a designer in is to bring new products and new ideas. And so you got to gauge it with every person.
[00:06:22] Speaker A: And Simon, I sense that you've got a few tricks up your sleeve for really getting under the skin of a client. I mean, it goes beyond looking at them for on Google, for example, does it?
[00:06:32] Speaker D: Yeah, I definitely don't do anything like that because not everything's on Google.
I just try and tell them about my life and what I'm doing.
Like yesterday we went, forgot we're doing a new farmhouse project and I told them I was going to Boston in two weeks. And they're like, oh, my God, we've been to Boston. You need to go here and here. So the more you tell them about your life, the more they're engaging with you.
I went to Stamina for my 40th birthday. Again, I was telling you about telling the clients what I was doing and they were like, oh, my God, the interiors, they're amazing. So I got a real sense even then, really what they love. So I told them about my life and then they opened about theirs to me.
[00:07:07] Speaker A: Interesting. Do you open up to your clients as well?
[00:07:10] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. There are times when you have a good chunk of time with clients and others when you literally on an hour, zoom call on the other side of the world, and it's. And it's. It's very difficult.
Again, I think referencing time again, the Period of time that you're learning about that client and developing the brief can be months, but it's a slow burn.
And you can plant seeds and make suggestions on email or face to face and then let them sit with it and you see their position shift.
Yeah. So I think. And then in terms of your personal life, I think with age, age is huge. I didn't realize a big birthday this year and.
And it kind of dawned on me that this imposter syndrome that I think a lot of designers have should be killed.
The earlier you can kill that, the better, but certainly with age, that is a big influencer, the big way of mechanism by which you can kill that.
And I find myself bringing, I guess, my personal life, even direction with the business. Work in Mallorca, for example, is intentional because I like the sunshine. So it's unashamedly, okay, do that and learning to play paddle. And then the paddle scene here is booming. And you know that your clients who travel internationally play Padel, for example, it's like the new golf, I suppose, and you connect with them on that, say, let's go for a match or et cetera. And yeah, these are the times, the golden lanes.
[00:08:40] Speaker D: To counteract that, though, what you think sometimes when you're. Because I'm so giving at the beginning and I'm so, like, open, I really want to get them into the journey and be really personable. When it can go wrong, it can feel even worse because you've been so personal and open at the beginning, so you do form this really solid friendship. It feels like you're friends with them. It's really exciting. And then in the blink of an email, the whole thing turns and then that's really difficult to manage because you've been on this friendly basis for so long and you've been so open personally. And then when it does change, that's quite hard. It's quite jarring.
[00:09:18] Speaker B: Are there any client categories that you avoid?
[00:09:23] Speaker D: Give me a category.
[00:09:24] Speaker B: Well, I'm just, you know, people that won't give enough time to their projects. For example.
[00:09:29] Speaker A: Yeah, the. I'm too busy to look at that, I'm sorry kind of client.
[00:09:33] Speaker D: You don't find that out until you probably already see it at the beginning.
Yet if they replied to emails too quickly, and I know they haven't read it right at the beginning, but have you read the process document properly? Yeah, yeah, all good. But have you actually. Have you really understood it and do you have. Do you have any questions? They're a bit red flag.
[00:09:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[00:09:53] Speaker D: Until you're in it, it's really difficult to really gauge. Until it's like.
[00:09:58] Speaker B: It's like, how early do those warning bells start ringing?
[00:10:00] Speaker C: I suppose warning bells. And I then say compassion. I think compassion is huge. Because if you steal a moment and pause and think, okay, well, why. Okay, that can be a great client. Because that same scenario, you think, well, they need this interior.
How else are they going to do it if they're like this? We just need to have an understanding that, okay, if we're going to do this, if it's acceptable to use a design and a design outfit to operate that way, to lay it down and say, well, we can work like this. This is how we'll communicate when, what format.
And if that works, great. And you sort of set those boundaries because. Yeah, then you just know how you're going to proceed going forward.
[00:10:44] Speaker A: I think sometimes as well, working out who the client is and who's going to be paying the bills might be sometimes a little blurred. So how do you identify who is actually the client?
[00:10:56] Speaker C: Yeah, it's a good one. Because who's paying the bills, schooling the shots? The key decision maker could be a gatekeeper, could be family, office, could be the end client, could be husband, wife.
Every project is different. We all experience that.
I think, again, this compassion thing is something I keep coming back to. If you're sensitive, most designers are, creatives are.
You're empaths and you're picking up the signals. You know how to respond to one and the other. The key decision maker or the one paying the bills might not be obviously the one making the decisions.
They might be completely clear, step back and say, well, I'm signing the checks, but this is not my bag and this is down for someone else or someone else's project. Fine.
You just have to read every situation.
I think it invites you in to understand people's why. And it comes back to, so the brief is, why are you doing this? We have a project at the minute and the client.
The client is a couple, lovely couple, but you just sense there's something in their history that you need to be extra sensitive to in listening and interpreting. So when they're asking for safety, you think something's happened here with this client and you can't even talk about it. But if you then tune into that and go, okay, well, let's just try this line with, with how we orientate the space and some of the touches, signals, the color schemes, fabrics, whichever, how does it make them feel safe? And you just then see them Respond to that. That one person and the other one. So, yeah, great, wonderful. Sign off. It's not my bag, but yeah, so read the room.
[00:12:38] Speaker A: Interesting. So compassion and empathy, huge.
[00:12:41] Speaker C: I mean, we're creators and. And I think it comes back to what Simon was saying before about that relationship. And then when it potentially goes sour, I mean, that climate, I've had a bad day, something at work, something in a relationship, you know, unhappy thing in the family, you just don't know. So empathy again. But when it does turn and we've had this, you have to get professional again. And no, it's not personal. I think we, as designers do we take everything a lot to heart.
And I. And again, with the age thing, you realize that, no, this is not personal. And you then go to your process and you go to, okay, this is what we greet. This is what we'll do. Okay, Acknowledge this. Here's a workaround. Yeah. And move forward.
[00:13:25] Speaker A: Makes sense. Anything to add to that, Simon?
[00:13:27] Speaker D: So from the very beginning, I always try and treat everyone as equal because you don't know their situation, their setup. And as you sort of move through the project, you kind of start to gauge kind of who's paying the bills. And you always treat it with sensitivity because so much money is flying out of their bank account. And especially on these big, big projects, when there are problem, I find it sometimes quite difficult to gauge, like actually what is their top limit and how high can they go.
So I'm always very aware emotionally when I'm sending these invoices out, what discussions are having behind the scenes, because sometimes they just don't know how big this project's going to become. So I'm always just aware of that. So communication, really, communication is key. Yeah. And then.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: And James, I wanted to pick up on something you said a minute ago about sometimes you're dealing with a family office or a client representative. How important is it for the designer to have access to the actual client?
[00:14:24] Speaker C: Yeah, it is, isn't it? As much as you can get dealing with the hand you dealt.
You can do your research, you can ask those close because they'll understand who the client is. Also, I think generally clients like that are very tolerant in terms of. Or maybe we've just been lucky and I hope that continues to explore. But they're incredibly tolerant and I think quite in the sense that are quite forgiving. If you get pretty much on the mark. These people are flying around all over the place. So if it's quality, if it's aligned with their sort of values, Et cetera, and the people around them, their gatekeepers are happy, then you're pretty sure that the client's going to be happy.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: Have you ever had a situation?
[00:15:12] Speaker D: I've only dealt with clients sort of like directly, but what happens if the representatives says yes to something that the clients wouldn't like?
[00:15:20] Speaker B: Or worse, the representative is only looking at the, at the, at the price tag and not looking at actually whether it fits the brief.
[00:15:27] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: And if you could just have that direct conversation with the client, you'd be able to sort of say, well, we've selected this because of A, B and C and this is what you told me you needed.
[00:15:37] Speaker C: Yeah. I think comes back down to leadership again. I think once you're in that position of lead, then a client is much more open minded and receptive. Yes. If you're working within budget parameters, that's obviously hugely important. But if you see an opportunity in a design scheme that you think, look, they're going to love this, this is going to really work for them or solve this problem or whichever, when they sit and see it, they'll stretch, they'll kind of go, no, you know what?
Yeah, do you know what? We will push the boundary here and we will move in that direction or not. But you know, you give them the choice.
[00:16:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:14] Speaker B: So it is important, it is important to have access to the actual client.
[00:16:18] Speaker C: I think so. Or it gets fed through and you have to present it in a way that, that's communicated in the most effective way. I mean it's hate letting go of something and let someone present your work. It's not, it's not ideal by any means, but then you just have to get good at just making it super clear. Clarity and certainty.
[00:16:35] Speaker B: Communication again.
[00:16:36] Speaker C: Yeah, communication.
[00:16:37] Speaker A: Okay. And Simon, you talked about when you dropped the invoice on the client and being sympathetic to what's going on behind the scenes. But how early do you talk budgets with the client? Are you talking about that upfront to try and lay the groundwork to make those difficult?
[00:16:54] Speaker D: Yeah, budget is obviously, we all know it's really tricky because we with but hopefully about to take on a really big project and we're talking budget early on while we're doing the scope of work document. And they don't know so it's very difficult to understand what their actual top, top limit what they physically can spend and then they don't always know how to funnel it and obviously you can get a Qs in to help calculate that. But when we're trying to work out our Design fee. When you say the budget, it's getting across to them what, when, when you say the budget, what does that actually cover?
Because there's so much, you know, it's the actual build, it's the contractors, it's our fee, it's the materials. So you've got to get across them, really. When we say what's your budget? We're saying vat, of course, vat, you know, what does that actually include? But the word budget is quite vague here. It's budget for.
Yeah, the next bit. So kind of right early on and.
[00:17:56] Speaker A: Trying to pin that down obviously is a. Is a position of awkwardness as well in that relationship.
[00:18:02] Speaker D: Trying to pin it down really, really early on. And then. So when you get into the end of the design stage, knowing with it, with the experience, you know, there are going to be more things to come, really make sure that they are comfortable with kind of where the budget is sitting and just preparing that it could get higher as the bill happens. Things could go wrong. And you can't, you can't openly say to someone how much you have in your bank. So you don't. You've got to try and regain that and you've got to get that information from them.
[00:18:28] Speaker B: Do you think, do you think that's.
[00:18:30] Speaker A: A British thing, that we don't really talk or like talking about money?
[00:18:34] Speaker D: I love talking about money.
[00:18:38] Speaker C: I don't. I don't think so. I think it's always a conversation you've got to have. I think the tricky thing is, is people's understanding. I think the point on. On what things cost. In the last five years, we all saw it, prices of products going up 40% over that span, that period of time.
The project we've got at present, the client made a point. We hadn't realized how prices of things, prices of products have increased. So everything works, Everything.
And when you're looking at a decent budget to begin with, and then that in their mind is up 40, 50% just because of inflation post Covid and Brexit is huge and you have to reevaluate. But yeah, I would say it's probably looking back restrictions on budget and going back to the earlier points on time, we hemorrhage a lot of time on projects. I wouldn't have it any other way if we're going to get the right outcome, but it's not commercially viable for most projects and I had to make that call a while ago to not attract the wrong work and the wrong clients, which puts you more into a premium High net worth category.
But it's just tough. I just operating in a more mass market, working to a budget, trying to design probably in a compressed period of time, which is harder to get it right. It's very difficult and it more breathing space with more time, more budget and fewer clients. That understood?
[00:20:15] Speaker B: Yeah. So then, then talking about time, how do you go about communicating to your clients how long each stage of their project will take? Do you talk about that as part of the synagogue?
[00:20:26] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. We structure it, sign process, we'll work to.
I think again the interesting thing in the last five years is the duration of projects.
We've had three year delays in planning. See we hit a design agreed with client and then we're sat waiting for three years and to the point on that particular project, client actually gave up on the project.
So our payday of procuring, et cetera, just never happened. Which hurts.
But then that's not in isolation. We've had all but one.
All our projects have experienced some serious delay in the last five years. And so you have to look at your business model and when you do phases of work and time, it a lot of it is just dealt by the circumstance. So to a lot of our clients again in the last five years it's been the outcome of COVID and Brexit and put in delays elsewhere, holdups elsewhere. So we've just had to kind of take it on the chin and just adapt as, as the client does.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: Do you discuss these timings with your clients? Yeah, I, they understand how long that planning is likely to take and how long the build phase will take.
[00:21:38] Speaker D: And so yeah, I just sort of like. Cause I treat them as a friend, I'm like look, we, we want to do this project for you as quickly as possible. I know you're desperate to get into your new home with your family and I always say, I always say like really trust us that we're going to try and do it as quickly as possible as. As possible. But things take as long as it takes.
No, we want to get onto the next project. We've got other projects. So we don't want to be on the project any longer than we need to. So projects are going to take as long as they need to. And I always say buckle up when we get into the build because it's. They just think it's just going to put water, put the waters in the next day and if the joiner gets sick and we had a situation recently where the fireplace arrived and the guy hurt is back and then Went off for three weeks. So it takes as long as it takes. But we always say just, just trust that we're going to do everything we can to get to the end result as quickly as we can. But it just. We can't control. There's so many things like factors that come into it. So there's got to trust that we're doing it as quickly as we can without rushing.
[00:22:41] Speaker A: And I guess, Simon, it comes back to communication again, because you need to educate the client, not just the work itself, how long the design process takes. Because it can't be instant, can it?
[00:22:51] Speaker D: No, no. I think it's just keeping them on top of that and keep managing their expectations as well.
We just were doing this commercial project recently and I said in the email, I really want to manage your expectations of how quick this is going to happen. Because, you know, he wants to all done by Christmas and this whole. For the football and things. I was like, you know, we're nearly in October, Halloween's creeping around the corner.
We do need time. We've got other projects on, so we can't just sort of slip it in our week. It does take time. So as long as you're really upfront and manage the expectations, you just got to kind of keep. Keep to it, but also manage. But also from their point of view, understand that if they're a business or they're a homeowner, they really want to get into their home, or if they're a business, they really want to open for Christmas.
Yeah, takes as long as it takes.
[00:23:36] Speaker A: It's a balance. And yeah, James, I was interested when you were talking earlier about challenging the client and taking their leadership with them. So when you're going through those design stages, the client needs to be involved with it. They can't just leave you to go off and design something and think their job's done. Yeah.
[00:23:55] Speaker C: And the design role doesn't change. It evolves. Silent. Because the solutions that you've come up with may need to evolve. And a good one, a classic one that traps a lot of people, is August shutdown. If you're ordering Italy, you know, Italian furniture, and you're ordering in June or end of June or early July, and you're telling client, yeah, product's going to end up at turning up end of September, early October, and they're looking at you thinking, well, that's not 10 weeks. Well, yeah, you're kind of flagging up early, maybe in the springtime, saying, okay, this is how it's rolling out. You're going to be finding this, if you want to be in for, then we need to look at this differently.
And yeah, just anticipate the problems, really sit down, talk them through.
And then you're helping them, you're educating them, you're helping them, you're leading.
And, and quite often as well, I think you probably also help make sort of efficiencies. There's things that you think, well, look, there's a couple of problems on the horizon. If we did this, we solve them both. And I think that's when clients sit back and go, okay, right, this is why we hired you. This is good.
[00:25:00] Speaker B: And are you upfront with them about how many meetings they'll be needed for? We're going to need four meetings through this design stage to make sure that they actually give you the time you need to get those decisions made and make sure that they're happy with the decisions they're making. Does that.
[00:25:19] Speaker C: No, I don't think you could call it clients to start projects and say, oh, we're great at making decisions. We'll have it like that for you at the worst. And so I think every project is different. I gave up. I used to calculate, try calculating anticipating in an Excel spreadsheet, coming up with fees, and I've given up. Literally have given up. You just kind of like, keep it simple because on balance, across all projects, you're fine if you spend. You can spend hours just trying to work it out and never get it right.
I gave up kind of counting how many meetings we're going to do because, yeah, a project. Well, there you go. We just had it. A project delay. 12 months or how many more meetings am I going to have now? I mean, heck, the design's probably going to change. We sit there, we're about to agree on a design. Twelve months from now, it'll be changed. I'm anticipating it's going to be because you do, you know, do you have those discussions?
[00:26:16] Speaker D: Yes, I. We've actually had this conversation recently.
Max, who worked with me, is we. We know how many meetings they're going to have in the design stage. And roughly, we're sort of changing our model slightly where we're just going to charge our hourly rate because we just don't know how many site visits they're going to need us on. So so many things can happen. And again, I think it's really making sure that at the very beginning, to save the frustration when it happens, that the client really understands how you're charging and pricing throughout the entire project and going Back to your point about the shutdown, summer shutdown. It's just gently reminding that when you get to October, November, that you know why there is a bit of a delay. And then if there's customs, which we had that recently, when things get stuck in customs coming over here and the contracts are really wanting the materials, I'm like, it had to be ordered it a month earlier. Has we suggested we would have missed summer shutdown? And so that you just got to keep reminding them of because they would have forgotten that you would have told them about the summer shutdown. And then it's just keeping. Yeah. Communication. Keep being transparent.
[00:27:23] Speaker A: Yeah, Tough question. New Susie coming.
[00:27:26] Speaker B: Yeah, No, I was going to say, I think this is a good one for Simon to kick off on. So the designer's fee proposal has got to be an essential document in all of this.
What are the key things that you include when you're preparing a fee proposal?
[00:27:39] Speaker D: The fee proposal for me is, again, we've just gone through this whole massive. So the more projects we do, the more tighter we're becoming and really understanding what the client responds to. Well, in terms of fees.
So the scope of work document is crucial to really understand what the scope is, because obviously scope creep comes in. That's a whole different podcast, but.
And then when you get to the actual fee proposal, it's really laying it in black and white almost. I almost. I detail it really heavily, but almost do a summary section of the main points of what. What meetings and time cover in stage one, what meetings in stage two, and then really clearly what the procurement fee covers and what we're expected to do for that. And then any site visits after stage two is all covered. So it's really black and white. There's no shady areas.
And also explaining into the work in your contract and fee proposal what words actually mean, because before I did interior design, I had no clue what the word procurement meant, not a clue what it meant. So I can't just assume the client's going to know what procurement means, because so many words, even now, I'm learning every day, you know, new words. I'm like, oh, my God. So we've got to really, like, break it down to the client. And that fee proposal is just. It's crucial to how the rest of the project is going to go. So if there is a little bit of a bump, you can just refer back to the fee proposal and your contract and it's super clear.
[00:29:11] Speaker B: So contract's really important too, then?
[00:29:13] Speaker D: So important. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:29:15] Speaker C: And James, James Yeah, that's really interesting because I had this big thing about 80, 20 rule and about 80%, 80% effort, 20% return and witching that 20% effort, 80% return. And it's affected our model of what we work on.
And purely by accident we found that we started to get repeat clients, projects, clients with two, three, possibly four projects in them. So the relationship changed and any kind of we have a contract but it's loose and we just have an understanding that look, we've got it covered, which is very loose and I can imagine Biod probably would not endorse this, but we just got a good, good relationship with the clients and they just go like, we've got it, just pass it over.
[00:30:10] Speaker A: Built entirely on trust, by the sounds of it.
[00:30:12] Speaker C: So there is a contract definitely and it's phased and it's in phases and fees are clear.
But it comes back to the fact that we could detail what we'll deliver and deliverables, but it's going to shift and it does and it shifts quite often and it is deliberately, intentionally loose because then there's freedom to pick up more work because it's like, okay, well, you pick up that yet? No problem, we'll pick it up. And if it's extra work, yes, we'll fee. But I think to take away, I think we found that contracts got a bit too stuffy and it get a bit scary for clients and clients want certainty and they want clarity but the clarity they want is probably not what we've been necessarily taught to kind of put forward. It's quite intimidating, almost too rigid and I'm probably gonna, I might get stung by that one day. So there we go. I'll eat my hat. But yeah, I found that by, by being like that, clients have become more.
Okay, right, I appreciate that. You're my go to.
[00:31:16] Speaker A: No problem.
[00:31:16] Speaker C: That's good.
[00:31:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Right, so before we continue, we would like to do a quick shout out to Natural Maps, the organic bed and mattress company based on the banks of the River X in Devon. If you're designing a space where wellness and sustainability matter, then this is a name to know. That's right, Suzy, isn't it?
[00:31:34] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Their beds and mattresses are handcrafted using natural organic materials. No synthetics, no glues and zero harmful chemicals. Plus their organic wool fibres make them naturally fire retardant, so there's no need for chemical sprays.
[00:31:48] Speaker A: And they're also the first B Corp certified bed company in the uk. Solar powered workshop, plastic free packaging and a brilliant bed and Mattress for Life initiative. Refurbish, recycle or donate. So nothing ends up in landfill.
[00:32:01] Speaker B: And their showrooms are total design inspiration. Each one features a sleep zone with dim lighting, calming scents, and even a bird song soundtrack recorded in the nature reserve by the Devon Workshop. So it's a sensory experience you and your clients will find inspirational.
[00:32:16] Speaker A: So Natural Mat, where sustainability meets sleep beautifully. You can learn
[email protected] or visit them in London, Knutsford, Devon or in the Cotswolds.
[00:32:29] Speaker B: It always surprises me that someone's spending, you know, half a million pounds or a million pounds or 2 million or 5 million with you. And, you know, in. Under any other circumstance, they would have a robust and rigid contract. And yet clients do seem to be really reticent to sign contracts with their interior designer.
[00:32:43] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:32:44] Speaker B: Beats me.
[00:32:45] Speaker C: Yeah. I don't know why. Because, yeah, we have that. And I think if you're leading, if you're giving them solving their problems, then you're solving the problems and they'll kind of go, yep, okay. And they look at the cost and the impact, whichever, and they go, this is the way to go. It's a lot of them quite commercially minded, so they'll look at it like business and they want in. Quick chat, see what you're proposing, see the pros and cons. Great, okay, this is what we're doing. Move on.
[00:33:12] Speaker A: Do you ever get a client coming to you saying, I've got a contract, sign this, rather than you presenting the contracts to the client?
[00:33:18] Speaker D: No, not had that. No.
[00:33:20] Speaker A: I just wonder whether they see a contract as kind of like a defensive measure for you to protect yourself, and that's why they feel I used to.
[00:33:27] Speaker D: Say it's to protect them as well.
[00:33:29] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:33:29] Speaker A: But maybe they don't see that. Maybe. I don't know. That's interesting.
[00:33:33] Speaker D: It's not really having any pushbacks on the actual contract. It's just when there has been. If there has been a bump and we need to refer it, if it is loose, it's like, do you. It's really tricky. I mean, how, how do you. So ask a question?
[00:33:48] Speaker C: Yeah, of course.
[00:33:49] Speaker D: How do you like, if, if, if it's loose, like, and you did hit a problem, if you didn't. If. How do you then, like, address it then?
[00:33:56] Speaker C: I lead with compassion. That's right. Okay. When Covid hit, I went to follow Tony Robbins on virtual kind of events. And when Covid hit, there was a lot of coaches, business coaches, saying, look, lead with compassion, and friends who run businesses we kind of all got heads together and said, I've got deposits and I've got this and don't know what the world's going to happen, blah, blah. We all kind of just said, look, let's just give it all back. You say, look, we'll do this, we'll do, no problem. There's your deposit back. There's whatever the gripe is, we bow down and pretty much every one of us experienced clients just say, don't worry, keep it, hang on to it. It wasn't the response we were expecting and it was just this leading like that in such a manner, and we got it back.
We got that kind of same understanding, compassion. Probably a bit risky, but certainly in Covid, what choice did any of us have? We were kind of trying to learning, we're all learning, but it's something then we've carried forward. And I think all these conversations about the contracts, if you nip it in the bud way before that, as best you can. And for me, it comes back to time, just giving the right level of time, because what we're doing on these projects, I look at some projects and how quickly they turn around, especially commercial projects, especially, say, restaurants, hospitality, where there's a real business angle or two, they've got to make that proper, that operation of success, to race through a design and to implement it and to get those doors open.
You know that. Right. That design's got to be right, it's got to be a winning design. And if it's not, well, everyone hurts.
It's tricky. So time for me to nip that so it never becomes an issue.
A good relationship.
[00:35:43] Speaker A: Yeah, fascinating answers. And when working for a tricky client, how important is it to have a good, supportive, professional team on board with you?
[00:35:53] Speaker C: Yeah, good. I think lean. You start to naturally warm towards suppliers that are solid, reputable.
I guess it comes to values and belief systems of your own again. I suppose with age, you kind of start getting a bit more, I guess, stuck in the mud or a little bit set in your ways in terms of who you want to work with, who your client is. But that goes for suppliers as well, because you don't want to be. You don't want to be caught out. You'll be tripped up.
So, yeah, that's important.
[00:36:25] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:36:26] Speaker A: And same for you, Simon. I bet. Surrounding yourself with good people.
[00:36:29] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, Max works with me and I think having. I feel like I'm a good person and I try and always, like you said, give compassion, and that can only get you sometimes. So Far.
But it's really nice to have a sound board and you. I. I've learned recently just to really. Just take a minute, don't react straight away. Yeah, just take a minute, take a. Take a breather and really think about what could be going on behind the scenes. Just step back from everything. But having a support team, friends. I've got designer friends who I rely on all day, every day just to bounce off and, and it can be that they give me the sort of the confidence to go, actually, you're not crazy. This is bad behavior and you've got. It's how we're going to move forward. So your network is.
Designer friends and people you work with is imperative.
But the core is everyone knows you're a good person. You're just trying to do the best you can do. Yes.
[00:37:20] Speaker B: We have a rule where if we. If we have a tricky situation and you're composing a difficult email, don't send it that night.
[00:37:26] Speaker D: No.
[00:37:26] Speaker B: Come back in the next morning, reread it, edit it again, have another think, cool off and then press Send.
[00:37:32] Speaker D: Yeah. And this is like, could be a bit to be subject, but ChatGPT is really good at just. You could really go absolutely in, get. Get your emotion out into an email and you can, you can say ChatGPT, can you just soften this a bit? And actually sometimes everyone's done it, sometimes when it does give you the reply back, you're like, actually, that is perfect.
That's helped me.
[00:38:00] Speaker B: I'm going to do that. Definitely. Definitely, Definitely.
[00:38:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:03] Speaker B: So, Simon, you touched on earlier, way earlier about possibly using a quantity surveyor.
[00:38:09] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:38:09] Speaker B: How do you do that for your clients? What do you recommend? I think for.
[00:38:14] Speaker D: On. On big. On big projects, I think it's really important to help gauge how much the build is going to cost, especially really early on.
But then once they've gone through that stage, I've actually got a call with clients afternoon about it because we're trying to get to that budget bit and I need to have the conversation about. I think you need to get a QS in to really help you manage that bit. So I do think it's important on the. On the big ones when there's lots of money.
[00:38:38] Speaker B: Sort of set a baseline.
[00:38:40] Speaker D: A baseline? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:38:42] Speaker B: And James, do you do getting off with qss?
[00:38:44] Speaker C: Getting. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And getting that big number out early is. Is important, but. And then warming the client up. I think also warming the client up and saying you're about to see a big number, so sit down, don't worry, it's not the end number. We're not asking for money today. We're not asking for it in three months time, six months time or even probably 12 months time.
It's a start of 10. Where do we go with this itemized what, what comes out, what stays in. Because you can't assume anything. You can't assume where a client's going to spend the money.
We had it very recently through us. We put a heck of a budget together which was eye watering and sat back thought this is never going to go. It's never going to. But we have to present it to learn where we pull back.
And clients will spend money on more often than not on flexible furnishings because they can then take them on with them somewhere for a chest, wherever, tables. And then this particular client just less on that and just plowed it into the interior architecture and joinery, et cetera, which was eye watering spent. But it's what was important to them. Now we couldn't have called that and we couldn't have assumed it either. So we had to put everything in, go all in and then warm client up and say look, it's there but you know it's going to come down. It's better. Heck of a lot.
[00:40:06] Speaker D: Yeah. I think as well that you, whenever we present the, the full design and the full budget is being like, we can come back from this. This is not it.
[00:40:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:40:16] Speaker D: If, if this makes you feel uncomfortable, we can work with you to work out where we can pull back. You don't have to have that 10,000 pound coffee table. We can find another one. So it's just really gauging.
[00:40:27] Speaker C: Definitely. And is it heck of a lot easier to take money out than it is to try and late in the day bring in surprises and add money.
[00:40:34] Speaker D: It's reassuring them that we can go back sometimes like this is it.
[00:40:38] Speaker B: But also before you've sold them the dream. That's the other problem. You know, if you sell them that kind of six star dream and actually they're on a three star budget and you don't find, you know that that's really awful because then everything you show them from that point on they will hate.
[00:40:51] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:40:51] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:40:51] Speaker B: And that's when it goes, that's when the relationship starts to go south.
[00:40:54] Speaker C: Yeah. And you give them the options. It's like okay, we kill beds, three, four, five or whatever and just put the money into the reception rooms or whichever. Or yeah. It was their choice. You present, you do your job, you present the options. We can like go through first pass drop out some things that we think are, you know, we can find for lesser spend and flag those up and then that allow client to sit there and say well no, but I love, I love an armchair. So keep the spend there. Not so fussed about av. Do you know what control systems. Nah, flick switch. That's great. And you kind of arrive at the right place but it's informed and that's the key, no surprises.
[00:41:34] Speaker A: And I get the sense from the way you talk about your business that you're quite relaxed about a number of things. But actually there must be process underpinning a lot of it. So in that design phase, I mean do you, do you have like a design phase program responsibility matrix? I mean what, what sort of things are you sharing that are fixed points for your client?
[00:41:55] Speaker C: Yeah, matrix is. So when it's, when it's tendering process, for example. Yeah, matrix roles, responsibilities specify only or procure or install through specialist suppliers. So it's black and white. And in tendering, I mean again in the last five years, the movement in prices, we've got a project QS on board, woefully underpriced kitchens, joinery, everything. I mean massive by masses amount. And it was quite a shock to them as a professional when we stepped up and said so the cost of things, okay.
And we all got heads together and okay, we now find what, what the number is.
So but then what compounds that if there is mixed messaging on.
Well, if we're supplying tiles but the main contractors also put provision in for tiles and you can have the same product costed in three times. So clarity amongst the team. And it's very difficult because I think everyone's. Every project has got a mix of different stakeholders on the project which vary. So it's a new experience with a new team pretty much every time.
And you don't know what people's experiences are but coming together and saying okay, let's work this out, let's get a great tender pack together so there's no doubling up and the client looks through and goes okay and they can even look okay, who's responsible for xyz.
[00:43:16] Speaker A: So again taking that lead leadership role.
[00:43:19] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. Which at times you kind of get architect, you get main contractor, QS even and ourselves AV specialist, whichever no one architect quite often will take as contract administrators perhaps take ownership or a QS may step up. But generally people are busy.
People are busy. And I suppose it comes back to my time thing that by fewer clients and trying to take time which Is always difficult to navigate in terms of running a business. But by giving time, you're not rushing even that process. Costing. Because get out Wrong. And there's another reason for a client to come back and say, why is this costing twice as much?
And then you've got this whole. What we're talking about clients being awkward when they're not. They're just not informed fully, like, yeah.
[00:44:08] Speaker D: Or you can have the reverse.
[00:44:10] Speaker C: And you.
[00:44:10] Speaker D: You could have made the kitchen even better.
Yeah. You know that there was more budget. So until you get a full design together and you. At that point where you. They can really see where it's sitting. Because if the Key west comes in and says, you've got a budget for here, here, here, actually when you get to the actual design in the kitchen, you might actually end up having more.
[00:44:29] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. Completely.
[00:44:30] Speaker D: And stretched more. Yeah.
Because you don't know the upper limit. It's really hard to gauge. So that's why it's really important to get. I always sort of like, go to the max. And how. I always sort of say, this is the best it can be and this is where the budget is sitting. And then we can put it back. Exactly. I don't want to do it. Yeah. I don't want to think, oh, I could have made that look even better had I known we had an extra 10,000.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:44:57] Speaker C: That's exactly right. Go in high. You don't want. Just look what you could have won. Kind of. It's like, okay, go in. It's for them to put.
[00:45:04] Speaker D: I think clients are always afraid that interior designs are going to go and spend loads of money on purpose.
I try not to, but there is an element to it because you want it to be the best it can be. So you are going to spend the max budget and then we could bring it back if they feel uncomfortable. But it's better to do it that way than.
[00:45:21] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:45:22] Speaker D: Other way.
[00:45:23] Speaker C: And that's where leadership comes in. If you. If you've got strong justification for.
[00:45:28] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:45:28] Speaker C: And they go.
They're not just looking at a big number and thinking, well, it looks very nice and it's a very big number. But, you know, give me more than that. And you think, well, you know, this is why. It's because how you use this kitchen, this or, you know, with this, for access or whatever, there's a whole number of things, but you put a strong case forward, which has developed throughout a course of design process that we know, answering the brief, then if it's too much Then short, you pare it back. You find ways of value engineering. But generally there shouldn't be this.
[00:45:57] Speaker D: When you say words, should we value engineer this? They'll quickly say no.
[00:46:01] Speaker C: Yeah, that's true. And it depends where. So then spend the money that kind.
[00:46:06] Speaker D: Of go back to it costs what it costs if you want it to look like this. And you can kind of really gauge when you give them the budget and what the design is. If you know, normally the husband's like, that is really expensive. I'm like, don't worry, we can pull this back if we want to. And then it's kind of what we said about replying to the email. Once they go away and have a conversation about it, it's normally okay and is not okay, then maybe we'll flag it.
[00:46:30] Speaker C: And that's always an interesting moment. I still get it. You, you hand that estimate over and it's used to bumbling. He's just like, was it biblical? Yeah, it's like four winners in a funeral. That is it. So it's like a bit like. And you just don't know because they're just going to go oh way and they're passing out or whether. Just don't batter an eyelid.
[00:46:50] Speaker D: It's.
[00:46:51] Speaker C: You cannot assume it.
[00:46:53] Speaker B: So Simon, how. What would you do in a situation if you suspected that your client couldn't actually read drawings or wasn't getting what you were trying to communicate to them but were too sort of proud to let on?
[00:47:08] Speaker D: I assume they can't read the drawings from the get go because going back to my point earlier, before I came into interior design, I probably couldn't read a drawing. So why would I expect the clients to understand what these really technical drawings look like from the beginning? So we, we now model everything up so every single space gets modeled 3D. And we'll always try and we will always produce visuals for the client to visually see. Because looking at, you know, a 2D plan, they, it's hard, really difficult to visualize. So we don't, I don't, I assume they don't know how to read a 2D plan. So we always, we model everything up. And also I think it's more exciting for us as well. You can really talk through the space with the client, I guess when they sign off the technical drawings. As long as the technical drawings are exactly as the model of what they've seen and you talk them through the technical drawings and just highlight really key areas. As long as they sign off on it, then you can't really do much.
[00:48:06] Speaker B: Because they've effectively signed off the model.
[00:48:08] Speaker D: Haven't you?
[00:48:08] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:48:10] Speaker C: And James amazes me that, no disrespect to architects, but it amazes me how many architects just communicate plans in just 2D.
Phenomenal in this day and age.
Yeah. I find that incredible because you can't. I mean, it takes a mind to kind of be able to interpret them. And even then you can't really fully. You can't. Certainly can't feel the space from a 2D drawing. So, yeah, it's going straight to 3D.
The big thing. Why I point the finger towards, I guess, architects a little bit.
[00:48:40] Speaker D: Not all.
[00:48:41] Speaker C: Because there's some great architects out there is they're having some of the earliest conversations with client and a lot of big decisions are not made, but they're pretty much. And the narrative is. And the architecture is being set early and quite often before an interior design is involved.
And if those decisions are being based on 2D plans, based on a client's gone to an architect, maybe slightly in awe of the architects and the architects come back with plans and they've gone, yeah, great. You've given me X amount of bedrooms and reception rooms and things like that.
That's what I've asked for. Great. Let's press on.
Yeah, we go three days, go to 3D, stick that in front of client and they're like, yeah, did not think it was going to look like that. Hang on, this isn't right. And I had an architect say about a month ago, I found it amazing. Just said, yeah, we kind of stopped working with interior times because you keep changing things.
[00:49:37] Speaker D: Yeah. For the better.
[00:49:38] Speaker C: The heck.
[00:49:39] Speaker A: It's like.
[00:49:39] Speaker C: Did ask yourself the question why? Come on. Yeah, so 3D CGI is amazing.
[00:49:45] Speaker A: That's interesting. Sometimes an awkward client might not be. Might be awkward because of the contractor that they're using, that they might have appointed that might be advising them or have their ear. So sometimes contractors or cheap contractors, shoddy contractors imposed on you could be a problem. How do you deal with that?
[00:50:04] Speaker C: Yeah, you just can see that that.
[00:50:06] Speaker B: One'S resonating with the audience.
[00:50:09] Speaker D: Everyone's got red smirky.
[00:50:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:13] Speaker C: I think it helps personally, I guess, where my engineering background comes in because I'll fall back on what I know and you reach out to technical support.
But you can put a case forward and put it forward to the contractor and the client to explain why certain something should be the way it's at. You can make your recommendations, especially if it's off subject. And it's on the contractors subject. You put it out there. Generally on a project, there's a number of good stakeholders involved that other people will be seeing that and at some point or another the client will probably realize it too. And what's the decision making? The client's gone down for that. Is that contractor a friend? Is it a family member? Is it on price?
Well, then you just have to pull them up on it and say, look, great. But we just think this, we recommend that leave it with you. Sure, we can work with them if we have to do that. But you know, and you're just constantly anticipating. Yeah. Potential areas.
[00:51:13] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:51:13] Speaker C: I think you have to go a little bit further with your design as well. You might setting out drawings or going on site to the point where we did some frame framework, has some beading detail on a wall, supply drawings. In the end, we spent six days unpaid, six days drawing all on every wall across the whole house because the contractor wasn't capable of interpreting the drawing accurately enough to get what we were trying to achieve. And we just thought we just got to draw this on the wall and literally get them stick a. Stick it on where we've drawn. It's nuts.
[00:51:45] Speaker A: You are too kind.
[00:51:46] Speaker D: Right, Simon?
[00:51:48] Speaker A: Yeah. How would you deal with difficult contractors who might be the client's best mate?
[00:51:53] Speaker D: Oh, I've heard so many horror stories about. I mean, there's so many different personality types and some, there are some dodgy people around, you know, around, and you've got to, oh, it's really tricky. If they're the client's friend and they are just factually wrong, then at the end of the day it's that they are your clients. You've got to kind of maybe fall in line with what they're saying.
But in terms of the actual work itself, if they've chosen the contractor and the work isn't great, it's not, it's not really an answer for it really. You can only do what you can do and you can't be on site every single day.
So we always from the beginning say, you know, we do have trusted trades that we, we've used before and we know their process, we trust them and it's get. It's really hitting home at the very beginning. The process of working with the designer and the trades is the most crucial bit. And even if the, what the supplier, the trade that we're recommending is maybe a bit more expensive than your friend, that value in itself of the process and the trust is worth so much rather than Just getting someone because they're a bit cheaper and it could go horribly wrong, which will cost them more that it's getting that across to the client. But dealing with actual contractors themselves, you've just got to just stay firm and fair and buckle up.
[00:53:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Communicate in, by the sounds of it.
[00:53:13] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely.
[00:53:14] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:53:15] Speaker C: Yeah, I think. I think so.
[00:53:16] Speaker D: It's not easy.
[00:53:17] Speaker B: So I was going to ask. I'm going to skip one and go to the next. So following on from this thing, kind of coping with that on site blame game when things go wrong can be very difficult for the designer to manage. But, James, do you have any strategies for dealing with this dreadful contractor that's been dumped on you?
[00:53:34] Speaker C: I mean, yeah, you've got to look at what the root cause of the problem is, go back to that. So no blame culture.
It's okay we're faced with this.
I mean, the circumstance by which this arose may be completely unforeseen.
And I think you just have to deflect any kind of blame game and just come up with solutions.
Certainly if stakeholders are there, main contractors, if a client is there, whichever, if you're proactively looking for a solution, holding your hands up when you need to, easiest thing to do and just take it on the chin and just move forward. And I think that's all you can do and just be part of the solution. Because everyone wants a solution.
[00:54:15] Speaker D: At the end of the day, we always say with the contractors at the beginning, we are a team and we don't want to, you know, blame each other for anything. But if something does happen, I guess you've got to first take, take a note of what you've done. So have I done anything here? Is there anything that I've actually done or could have changed that? There is blame on me. And if, you know, I've done everything by the book, I have done everything, everything's great and it is the contractor's fault. It's then having a pro. I would have a private conversation with the contractor first and then there's still an issue, then we need to speak to the client about it and then just sort it out. But we are a team and we all want the same outcome. And it's just remembering that when you get into the blame game, it can become a bit toxic and a bit really stressful. But everyone needs to remember that we all want a really good project. The builders want a really good project. We want a good project, want beautiful photographs, the client wants a good home.
Remembering that, that bit.
[00:55:10] Speaker C: Yeah. And you do have to stick up for yourself a little bit as well. Yeah, conscious. I've been sort of saying about compassion and, you know, taking stuff on the chin. But I think there's definitely. If you do have a contractor who's probably been a little bit bullish and sort of saying, oh, interior designers said this and you should stick up for yourself, you say, look, we're here to do this. We've been instructed to do this. We provide these details. In fact, it's not like this. We've had three marble shower trays produced and the hole was cut in the wrong position.
Just wasn't made correct. A drawing. And the contractors there said, well, look, this is. You've got your trays, we're not changing it now. And you think, well, okay, well, you fall back on your paperwork then. This is a production drawing or a production drawing we shared. It's not correct, but. So you do have to step up, but be part of that solution at the same.
[00:55:58] Speaker D: I think it's just respect. I think once the respect goes for the designer's time, I think when. Because, you know, design fees can be quite big and if the client really understands what the. What the fear covers, when you do get into all that sort of backwards and forwards, I think once the respect start to disintegrate of the designer's time, I think that's really tricky to then claw back.
And you've just got to kind, yeah, keep. Keep calm, keep the respect moving. But it does go. I have pulled up a client and said, we need to kind of reset. Reset this energy.
And. And actually when I said that, it responded really well. I think you just got to just.
[00:56:35] Speaker B: So that was the end of the role. You get a bit of question. You kind of answered it. So, yeah. What do you do if things go wrong?
[00:56:41] Speaker D: Can.
[00:56:41] Speaker B: Is it possible to reset that painful relationship?
[00:56:45] Speaker D: Yeah, I think there is a limit. I think when a line's been crossed with respect, you know, we all want to be respected. It's our job. When we're not doing this for fun. It's our business, our livelihood, so. And I'm all about give and take and being moldable, but there is a limit to that.
I can't just do 100 extra hours. And if it does become a bit salty, you know, all you can do is remind them politely. And if it keeps going on, you do have to sort of take back control and say, look, we need to reset this. We've got three months after the project. We all want to get to the end. And I try and keep it light hearted and go, do you remember that time I said things were going to get really bumpy during the build?
This is it.
[00:57:22] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:57:23] Speaker D: So it's not your, the frustration you're having isn't always actually at the designer, it's just the stress of everything. Yeah. I think once you sort of say when I've ever said that, they always go, oh yeah, you did say that. And then you kind of calm them down a little bit. So I think it's just getting into their human emotions but also knowing your self worth and you know, a lot of us have our own businesses and we've worked so hard to grow these businesses.
So I think it's just sort of standing up for yourself but not being like, you sign this contract.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're not doing that. I think it's just, I think it's game over.
[00:57:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:57:56] Speaker D: I think it's. You can't come back for that.
[00:57:58] Speaker A: No opportunity to send chocolates or flowers or anything.
[00:58:02] Speaker C: No, no.
[00:58:03] Speaker B: But.
[00:58:03] Speaker D: No, I think, but I think at the end of the day we want to get to the end of the project and if you do have a difficult client, it's just knowing your line.
[00:58:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:58:12] Speaker D: And it is okay to walk away if someone, if a line's been crossed and the designer is at their wit's end and it's just, you can't salvage it. You've got to just know. I think when to, to say enough is enough. But obviously try and avoid that as.
[00:58:27] Speaker A: Tough to know unless you've been through it and have the experience, isn't it?
[00:58:30] Speaker C: Yeah. And in the moment it's not nice. But I think the end game, if client is still able to move in for Christmas, that kind of thing, you still hit that then to be honest, it'll be a distant memory, you know, in a lot of people's minds. And I think also the other reason for being part of the solution is that there will be a day when you do drop the ball and to have people who, you know, back your head down the line and you know, you have that relationship, they'll, they'll cover yours because they all want to get off site completed.
[00:59:00] Speaker A: Okay, so what do you do then when a client threatens you with legal action?
[00:59:04] Speaker C: I've never, can I say that?
[00:59:07] Speaker A: Say that.
[00:59:08] Speaker C: I've never been in that situation. Fortunately for me, it's a Shajini.
[00:59:15] Speaker A: What would you do?
[00:59:16] Speaker C: What would I do? I mean, take legal advice. Contact the BIID and speak to the legal team.
[00:59:20] Speaker B: Can you pay our insurers first off bat for today.
[00:59:24] Speaker C: I mean, the key thing is, should never get that far unless the client is in a particularly difficult situation and they're pulling a fast one on you. Then, to be honest, you probably. You'd probably got a watertight case that if someone did push it, then you're sound, you're safe not to get wound up.
It would.
You'd have sleepless nights. It's the same if someone's questioning your work.
You don't sleep. It's like you take it personally. Yeah. And you shouldn't, but we do.
So I would say, yeah, it shouldn't get that far. And if it has, well, it's probably bigger. Bigger things going on.
[00:59:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. Right, Simon, go on we go.
[01:00:04] Speaker D: That's what I'd say.
[01:00:06] Speaker A: That just what he said.
[01:00:07] Speaker D: Okay, you're gone then. That's what I. I think when it. When it gets to that point, I have. I have experienced it, and it was just com. It was out of my control. Like, completely out of my control.
And all of my. Everything was covered my end. So I. I kind of knew.
I sort of pleaded and not didn't plead, but reminded everything of the process. And it did get to that point. And I was like, if you want to go for it, do it, and we can resolve it in court. Because I've got everything my end. And I tried to resolve it. Like, you do get to a point. I've only had it once where you can't do anymore. So if they want to do it, obviously not ideal, but sometimes you physically can't do anything else. You can't do anything else.
Yeah.
[01:00:55] Speaker B: Thank you so much for your time today, Simon and James. It's really been a fantastic discussion.
[01:00:59] Speaker A: Great insights. Thank you both so much. Thank you also to you, our live audience, and our hosts at Design Central Northwest for their hospitality. We do hope you've enjoyed this episode. Please do get in touch on our social channels. We're nteriordesignbusinesspod. The interior design business is a Wildwood plus production.
[01:01:17] Speaker D: Thank you.
